Dismal River: A Case Study

[Jim Colton]

Scott's coming to Ballyneal? Not after he forgot to include me in his National plans last year.

[Eric Smith]

Scott,

C'mon. I'm looking at the post Mac describes right now. I won't link to it because it is against the rules of the site on which you typed it. Moving on.

[Scott Warren]

Chris,

Blinded by ego or hatred, or simply lying in wait for something on which to pounce, here you are!

Absolutely untrue. I was replying to your claim that my simple, genuine, on-topic question about Jack routing DR was somehow rude or unacceptable. Check back to read exactly what you said. You made it seem he did when you now admit you don't know.

He is the problem with YOU.  YOU want to discuss that which you know nothing about.  YOU want to debate?  About what exactly?  I can't describe my house or my town for you either.  As Don mentioned, YOU haven't been to Dismal.

My involvement in this thread has been relatively minor. I asked a couple questions early (post #8) lamented those trying to railroad the thread off topic (#70), answered Eric's question to me about the GW list and asked you about Jack routing the course (#80), clarified my question to you (#89), asked about you not knowing about the routing given earlier comments and engaged with John L (#96).

That's extremely minor and largely concerned with Jack Nicklaus routing a golf course, which has been an ongoing topic of discussion and wonder here for years.

You claim "No beef with the designer"...then why even ask the question?  To insult Jack?  To bash the club?  To insult me?  I don't much care what you "heard".  If you want the answer, call Jack.  I told you what I knew.  I hope every architect and member sees this crap.  I don't think this site is about confrontation, but that is what you have done, and do here again.  I recall Ran set out the rules for this site and you just crossed them, in spades.

No, I tried to get information on an on-topic matter, one that has been discussed on this site for years with no solid conclusion. I thought you might be able to give solid, reliable information on that topic, so I asked you an honest question.

[Chris Johnston]

Scott, please drop the shovel...er...um...the axe.  This isn't a debate site and it certainly isn't a "gotcha" site.  That is exactly why you were banned from Max's.

You and this really are pathetic.  Your answers are too.  Read your post from this evening and defend it.  It was you who crossed the line.  Seems a trend.

[Scott Warren]

Chris,

This is a golf architecture site. I asked you a simple, honest question about the routing of DR, one relevant to a long-running topic of discussion and you then posted:

Once we began to hear from folks who ... question if the designer designed it, my enthusiasm for the thread has diminished greatly.  I like things positive.

If what I posted crossed the line then this site is in big trouble.

Eric: Talk me through the bit where I said I wasn't planning to visit Dismal River. I was always keen to see the course, but at the time I posted that I didn't have an invitation. I don't assume automatic access to private clubs. It is a privilege. When I was invited, I began planning to go there should I make it to the area as intended.

[Chris Johnston]

Chris,

This is a golf architecture site. I asked you a simple, honest question about the routing of DR, one relevant to a long-running topic of discussion and you then posted:

Once we began to hear from folks who ... question if the designer designed it, my enthusiasm for the thread has diminished greatly.  I like things positive.

If what I posted crossed the line then this site is in big trouble.

Eric: Talk me through the bit where I said I wasn't planning to visit Dismal River. I was always keen to see the course, but at the time I posted that I didn't have an invitation. I don't assume automatic access to private clubs. It is a privilege. When I was invited, I began planning to go there should I make it to the area as intended.

Nice try.  The accusations (remember them?) innuendo and crap must stop.  Scott, you have no lines.

You are good at deflection, but you flamed Mac along the way.  He's a good guy.  "Put up or shut up"?  Seriously.

[Eric Smith]

I had better be more careful.

Scott,

The post I referenced lists those courses Mac listed. I was not confirming anything about you and DR in my post.

This saga... you know how I feel about it as you and I have talked extensively about it offline in recent months. It is very sad to see that it won't be ending apparently anytime soon and that's a shame.

[Mac Plumart]

What is that phrase about a tangled web?    


Let's revist the very recent chronology of this thread...



Post 171…from me

I've seen you talk about your upcoming trip to Sand Hills and Ballyneal...but also noted you chose not to visit Dismal.



Post 172…from Scott W.

You have? Link me to it. You're talking garbage.



Post 173…from me

You are on record stating that you expect to encounter said courses in 2012 in the following order...

Prairie Dunes
Ballyneal
Sand Hills



Post 175…from Scott W.

As I previously said, your claims re: my travel plans are wide of the mark. Link me to where I said what you are claiming. Put up, or shut up.



Post 177…from Eric S.

Scott,

C'mon. I'm looking at the post Mac describes right now. I won't link to it because it is against the rules of the site on which you typed it. Moving on.




Post 180…from Scott W.

Eric: Talk me through the bit where I said I wasn't planning to visit Dismal River. I was always keen to see the course, but at the time I posted that I didn't have an invitation. I don't assume automatic access to private clubs. It is a privilege. When I was invited, I began planning to go there should I make it to the area as intended.


Is this putting up Scott?

 

In the end, you can say what you want...you can try to type posts on here and convince people of things about golf courses and/or people...but the truth is the truth.  As much as you and I don't see eye to eye on many things, I am not going to lie about you or about things you say.  If I'm wrong, I'll say it  If I make a mistake, I'll admit it.  It would be great to get the same courtesy in life, but I am a realist and I know this doesn't always happen.  But I can roll with the punches, people who know me, know what I'm all about.

Good luck to you in your life.

[Scott Warren]

Eric, Cheers. Mac was incorrect in what he stated. I will graciously accept his apology in due course

I agree it is a shame that this thread deteriorated the way it did. Genuinely. I have been very careful what I have posted re DR since last time there were fireworks, and that instance was reckless and inflammatory on my behalf to say what I did so bluntly to someone I have not met, I deserve criticism for that.

But on re-reading my contributions to this thread -- removing emotion -- I am comfortable with what I said and the way I said it.


EDIT -- added after reading Mac's post above.
Mac, You do not have any post from me on any forum or any private comment saying "I am coming to BN and SH and I won't be visiting DR". I never said that because that was never my plan. You are telling outright, bald-faced lies.

[Mac Plumart]

You are correct Scott...I don't have anything from you making a post, or a statement, stating you are not going to Dismal River.  But you did say you were planning on seeing Prairie Dunes, Ballyneal, and Sand Hills with no mention of Dismal River.  Then your reply to Eric certainly implies you weren't going or, at least, weren't planning on going because Dismal is private and you don't assume access.

If you want to call me a liar, feel free to.  Everything I have to say on the topic is on this post for everyone to see and I have no more to say on the topic.

[Scott Warren]

Mac,

One page ago you said:

I've seen you talk about your upcoming trip to Sand Hills and Ballyneal...but also noted you chose not to visit Dismal.

You argued that you could back that up, but now you concede:

I don't have anything from you making a post, or a statement, stating you are not going to Dismal River.

You either made a mistake or deliberately lied in an attempt to make me look bad. I am glad that is now out in the open.

[Mac Plumart]

 

[JNC Lyon]

WHAT DOES THAT SIGN SAY?!?!

[Shane Wright]

Don,

My point was not in reference to DR, it was in relation to the site generally.

But when fair, genuine architectural questions are asked and the answer to those questions is this from Chris:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51411.msg1175709.html#msg1175709

Once we began to hear from folks who ... question if the designer designed it, my enthusiasm for the thread has diminished greatly.  I like things positive.

then we have a problem.

Chris posted something that pretty well stated that Jack Nicklaus personally routed Dismal River.

I was very surprised that the routing, while edgy and controversial, was splendid reflecting "Jack unplugged"... The routing is epic and fair.  If Tom Doak "perfected what is a routing" at Ballyneal, maybe Jack "reinvented what is a routing" at Dismal.

I asked a genuine question about whether he was saying that was fact, because I have read in a number of threads that Jack has never personally routed a golf course, so thought it would be interesting if we had confirmation through Chris that Nicklaus had routed DR himself.

Chris's response to that was to throw his toys out of the cot.

This isn't about Dismal River. This is about people who have little interest in architectural discussion and debate trying to paint as villains those of us who do for our temerity of wanting a discussion. I have happily participated in -- and even started -- threads about my own club/course's shortcomings, because I'm interested in the nitty-gritty (the nit-picking, in Aidan's words) of the subject and I'm not going to apologise for the fact that my genuine, uninterested curiousity about this topic offends Chris Johnston.

I understand that Dismal River is a great place to play and that the community there is fantastic. I have no doubt that is true. A good friend of mine is a member there and I'd love to visit with him. For the 201st time, I have no beef with Dismal River, its owner, its members or its designer.

And I know I am not the only one who gets frustrated when a fair question about the architecture or history of the DR golf course receives a reply about how great the cameraderie is at DR, how tasty the pork chops are or how lovely it is to sit around the firepit on a chilly evening.

As much as some people want to make this about "Dismal haters making trouble", that's not what's at play from me and I trust any intelligent observer can see this for what it is.

Thanks, Scott for the kind words.  I believe I answered your inquiry last evening, clearly and to the best of my knowledge.  You even thanked me.  Blinded by ego or hatred, or simply lying in wait for something on which to pounce, here you are!  You may not have noticed I freely and openly particpated in the discussion.  I didn't have to, but the discourse would have been left to the blind, to those like you who have never been here.

He is the problem with YOU.  YOU want to discuss that which you know nothing about.  YOU want to debate?  About what exactly?  I can't describe my house or my town for you either.  As Don mentioned, YOU haven't been to Dismal.  As this is Lent, I will restrain my remarks, but I believe your "axe" has been very visible for all to see.  You have accused, you use innuendo, you insult.  That really is small and pitiful but bigotry is like that.  Now I understand why you were banned from Max's lounge.

Let me ask YOU a question, Scott.  As to the "ambush", do you know that Jack Nicklaus, one of the most respected men in the history of golf, didn't route Dismal River. "You claim "No beef with the designer"...then why even ask the question?  To insult Jack?  To bash the club?  To insult me?  I don't much care what you "heard".  If you want the answer, call Jack.  I told you what I knew.  I hope every architect and member sees this crap.  I don't think this site is about confrontation, but that is what you have done, and do here again.  I recall Ran set out the rules for this site and you just crossed them, in spades.

Ever notice the same general crowd, including you, always shows up to cast doubt and denigrate a pretty cool place that you haven't even seen?  All you have to do is look at the threads.  Same people, every time.  The "I heard it from someone else", or "I haven't been there, but", or "I rolled my eyes" does this site and your credibility no good service.  Quite seriously, I have had enough of it and your insults.  

I don't much care if you have a good friend as a member, but I'd bet you won't be after that post.  With apologies to Ran and Ben and evreyone on this site, (counting to ten) nevermind, it isn't worth it.

To your last sentence...based upon the numerous messages I've received today, there must be a lot of (what did you call them) unitelligent observers around here.  You just insulted them too.  Well played.

I look for the good and the positive.  Scott, sadly but once again, by you actions, you are neither.  

If you would like answers, don't be a DICK.  You aren't entitled to anything.

PS, the comraderie, the pork chop, and the firepit really are good and the club really is FUN!


Mac  - don't bother.  Scott won't be making it to Dismal River anytime soon.

Amen

[Jim Colton]

Does anyone have a picture of the original 13th green?

[Anthony Gray]

  http://youtu.be/CFh5FzXIeBg

[JC Jones]

WHAT DOES THAT SIGN SAY?!?!

no bare feet?

[John Kavanaugh]

Does anyone have a picture of the original 13th green?

Even I have never seen a picture of the original 13th. One of the fun things to do, which you should, is to walk back to the original green site and see what once was.  It was such a natural site that it looks like it was never there.  It is exactly like climbing back to the original back tee on 17 at Sand Hills.

[Eric Smith]

Does anyone have a picture of the original 13th green?

I wish I did. If you look back in the archives I believe it was Ghost of Hord Hardin who described the second shot to the original as ghastly. It was a semi blind green with a menacing front right bunker cut into the slope, which is still there behind the current green, back and to the right (see below):



Here again is a side view of that original greensite, with the 3rd iteration in the background:



I imagine what Ghost of Hord Hardin recalls as being a demanding shot would have been more of a mid-ish iron to that green, knowing the original was a good 30-40 yards beyond the current green. Coupled with the 14th, a hole with its own set of demands, this strech would no doubt have been a bear. Pun intended.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It seems DR may be becoming a GCA poster course. Rustic Canyon was and may still be. Mountain Lake almost a a critical mass of GCA Members to be one. Rustic's regular players had the passion and desire to talk it up. They were not a large enough critical mass. We did have a Kings Putter there which got many of us praising it as it deserves. Most ML's Members were not the type to make a big deal out of little things. They let the course speak for itself. DR has staff, Members and now has a GCA event. The desire to talk it up is there and to the point honest and open discusion is hard to maintain. I must confess I missed seeing this coming. I just noticed a lot of love for it without putting 2 and 2 together. Plus I was not one of the guys who thought much of it. I say this notwithstanding I had not played the course. I wish the DR guys well. I do feel the Doak course will put legs under much of the things desired and put forth as well as quieting the critics. There is nothing better for us than watching the evolution of a club when architectural changes as well as maintenance practice are the major parts of this. I do wish the DR guys would settle down and let the architecture speak for itself. This will be an exciting time for DR. I am sad it overlaps a trying and tough time at Ballyneal. The courses and memberships are very different except for geographic proximity. Nothing would make me happier than for both of these clubs to healthy and robust. I also hope the remaining posts on a topic called DR a Case Study will stay on topic which is by definition is about the evolution of the course and limited to facts.

[Jud_T]

for those who haven't seen it, here's Brad's review from last fall:

http://golfweek.com/news/2011/sep/22/raters-notebook-dismal-river-mullen-neb/?print&popup=true

[Chris Johnston]

"Nothing would make me happier than for both of these clubs to healthy and robust."

Tiger, me too.  

[Adam Clayman]

My recollection of the original 13th green and surrounds were this;

In the picture above, follow, on a line, what is the current left side of the green. Build up that dune, to the left and behind those bunkers and what you had was an almost saddle like look.  I would describe it as an almost Alps like look, and shot demand, with the green either completely, or partially blind. It was considerably up hill, and was a do or die shot, because of the original water and fert applications that made EVERYTHING lush and over grown.

I specifically recall all the pretty purple flowers that budded from 3-4 ft tall stems, surrounding almost all of the uphill ride towards the green site, from the same cart path that exists today. The reason I recall them so well, is because I had seen that type of flower before. It was at the USDA office in the noxious weeds pamphlet.

The greensite was so severe that any ball that missed the actually green itself, wasn't worth looking for.

In a nutshell, thats what was wrong with the first iteration of the whole course, (besides the greens at their desired speeds) because, searching and looking for balls, all day, was hardly fun. Granted, my initial visit was blessed with 30 mph winds, which only highlighted how inadequate the corridors were for proper golfing in the region.

[John Kavanaugh]

In a nutshell, thats what was wrong with the first iteration of the whole course, (besides the greens at their desired speeds) because, searching and looking for balls, all day, was hardly fun. Granted, my initial visit was blessed with 30 mph winds, which only highlighted how inadequate the corridors were for proper golfing in the region.

Adam,

Don't you see the same problems at Awarii Dunes?  It is difficult for a casual golfer to see past.

[Eric Smith]

Thanks for that Adam. The second shots at both 13 (old) and 14 may've been too much heroic / penal architecture for one to stomach. Both essentially half pars on the + side. I'll venture a guess that this stretch was a key negative to the early reviews, especially as these are not the type of second shots one typically finds at nearby Sand Hills GC, which I'd guess many of the panelists played and compared it to.

Shortening 13 made sense from a playability stand point and now it is a birdie hole. I do love the demanding nature of the second shot at 14 and the penalty with which the hole deals out a misplayed approach. It's one hole where I always think of Jack and wish I could play the high fade.