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Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #150 on: March 13, 2012, 02:52:11 PM »
My next question would be...why is the clubhouse/lodging so far from the course?

So you can drive by the "Play Like a Champion" sign.  Duh!  


 :)
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #151 on: March 13, 2012, 03:39:03 PM »
My next question would be...why is the clubhouse/lodging so far from the course?

So you can drive by the "Play Like a Champion" sign.  Duh!  


 :)

And the clubhouse was sited to overlook the Doak course!

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #152 on: March 13, 2012, 05:20:31 PM »
My next question would be...why is the clubhouse/lodging so far from the course?

So you can drive by the "Play Like a Champion" sign.  Duh!  


 :)

Don't forget about A. Ray Gray GCA Way on the way back...
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Aidan Bradley

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Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #153 on: March 13, 2012, 05:41:10 PM »

Tim Martin

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Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #154 on: March 13, 2012, 05:46:30 PM »

Chris Johnston

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Jim Colton

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #156 on: March 13, 2012, 06:13:05 PM »
Here is an article from 2010 highlight the changes made to enhance the playability and the fun factor.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20100624/SPORTS/706249731

Question for CJ: with Jack part of the ownership group, how receptive was he in picking someone else (Doak, Tiger, Watson, whomever) to the second course when he already had a routing staked out? How involved is he in the key club decisions?



Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #157 on: March 13, 2012, 06:25:26 PM »
Here is an article from 2010 highlight the changes made to enhance the playability and the fun factor.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20100624/SPORTS/706249731

Question for CJ: with Jack part of the ownership group, how receptive was he in picking someone else (Doak, Tiger, Watson, whomever) to the second course when he already had a routing staked out? How involved is he in the key club decisions?


Jim, I was disappointed, but not surprised, in the way the thread headed last evening.  Once we began to hear from folks who question the quality of a course they have never played, or question if the designer designed it, my enthusiasm for the thread has diminished greatly.  I like things positive.

Dismal River is a very fun place to visit and play.  The course is quite good and members are the best bunch of guys I know.


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #158 on: March 13, 2012, 06:30:52 PM »
The great paradox of a course named Dismal is that the harder people try to tear her down the higher she soars.

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #159 on: March 13, 2012, 06:49:57 PM »
Chris,

  It's always been the great unknown with the signature designers, right? Just how much were they involved and how much is the underlings. Doak seems to do a good job of giving his associates credit, and I'm sure others do as well. Other places...the associates never see the light of day. I've never really had a problem with it. 10, 20, 100 years from now, it will be a Jack Nicklaus course, it has his name on it. Even if he never routes his course (not saying he didn't here), he employs people he trusts enough to put his personal stamp on it. I'm not even sure why it was brought up here...I think Scott had a genuine interest in his level of involvement being greater at DR than in the past. I tuned out for a couple pages...busy trying to reply to JC on the other thread.

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #160 on: March 13, 2012, 07:01:13 PM »
I have no dog in this race, I was just fortunate to have spent a few days last August photographing the course. I played with one of the members and have to say as a 10 handicapper I had a blast out there on the rolling fairways with another kindred spirit. I cannot debate the merits or demerits of the architecture of the course because I was too busy enjoying the solitude and scenery. Too often I am disappointed by the negativity that seems to be pervasive at times on this site. I have seen many a good and knowledgeable contributor vanish from the forum because of the silly, mindless, childlike attitudes of a few. Its golf, it's a game, to be enjoyed not nit picked to death.

In simple terms, how much better does it get when you stroll the fairways with friends, old or new, and then join them for a delightful meal and a few adult libations and then remember the highlights of the day by a glowing fireplace while staring into an endless sky bedeckled with shining stars.

I enjoyed the challenge of the course and the amazing surrounds. We are fortunate to have such places as Dismal, Bandon, Cabot Links and many more. So enjoy and be grateful. There are many things that make a golf course fun and the inherent architecture is just one of the elements that contributes to the experience. IMHO.

Aidan.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #161 on: March 13, 2012, 07:20:26 PM »
Aidan,

Quote
it's a game to be enjoyed, not nit picked

Leaving aside destructive negativity and niggling, which I agree is unfortunate, that's what this site is about.

I agree it's a game to be enjoyed and in dozens of rounds with GCA folks the on-course time it's always about enjoying the game.

But this website is about discussing, debating and nit-picking golf architecture.

Some people on this site don't seem too appreciate that fact.

I'd suggest people who find genuine, constructive debate about golf courses upsets them probably aren't on the right website. It's what the GCA discussion group was set up to do.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #162 on: March 13, 2012, 07:27:27 PM »
I think many should go back and read the original post and limit commentary to the questions posed.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #163 on: March 13, 2012, 07:32:02 PM »
I think many should go back and read the original post and limit commentary to the questions posed.

Greg,

This is the line from the opening paragraph.  Based on how wide sweeping a question this is, I don't think very much has been OT in these past 7 pages:

What went wrong with the previous iteration(s) and what changes have been made since then, either from an architectural, maintenance or management perspective?

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #164 on: March 13, 2012, 07:36:40 PM »
I think many should go back and read the original post and limit commentary to the questions posed.

Greg,

This is the line from the opening paragraph.  Based on how wide sweeping a question this is, I don't think very much has been OT in these past 7 pages:

What went wrong with the previous iteration(s) and what changes have been made since then, either from an architectural, maintenance or management perspective?

Context Kalen, context.

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #165 on: March 13, 2012, 07:59:03 PM »
I have no dog in this race, I was just fortunate to have spent a few days last August photographing the course. I played with one of the members and have to say as a 10 handicapper I had a blast out there on the rolling fairways with another kindred spirit. I cannot debate the merits or demerits of the architecture of the course because I was too busy enjoying the solitude and scenery. Too often I am disappointed by the negativity that seems to be pervasive at times on this site. I have seen many a good and knowledgeable contributor vanish from the forum because of the silly, mindless, childlike attitudes of a few. Its golf, it's a game, to be enjoyed not nit picked to death.

In simple terms, how much better does it get when you stroll the fairways with friends, old or new, and then join them for a delightful meal and a few adult libations and then remember the highlights of the day by a glowing fireplace while staring into an endless sky bedeckled with shining stars.

I enjoyed the challenge of the course and the amazing surrounds. We are fortunate to have such places as Dismal, Bandon, Cabot Links and many more. So enjoy and be grateful. There are many things that make a golf course fun and the inherent architecture is just one of the elements that contributes to the experience. IMHO.

Aidan.

Well said Aidan.  Can you post some of the pictures you took or give us a link to them?  I would love to see them, and I assume others would too!
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #166 on: March 13, 2012, 09:13:54 PM »
Aidan,

Quote
it's a game to be enjoyed, not nit picked

Leaving aside destructive negativity and niggling, which I agree is unfortunate, that's what this site is about.

I agree it's a game to be enjoyed and in dozens of rounds with GCA folks the on-course time it's always about enjoying the game.

But this website is about discussing, debating and nit-picking golf architecture.

Some people on this site don't seem too appreciate that fact.

I'd suggest people who find genuine, constructive debate about golf courses upsets them probably aren't on the right website. It's what the GCA discussion group was set up to do.

While that's true. it does wear thin that almost everyone who feels the need to "validate" DRC through constructive debate has never actually been there. And almost all the real negative commentary about DRC in recent times has come from people who have never been there. I don't think it is too much to ask to make the trip if you really want to learn about the place, or just accept the fact that many who have made the effort (done the "heavy lifting" as Matt Ward used to write) like the club. Just my take.

Is this your 201st post about DRC? Just asking.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #167 on: March 13, 2012, 10:20:01 PM »
Well said Aidan

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #168 on: March 13, 2012, 10:29:28 PM »
Don,

My point was not in reference to DR, it was in relation to the site generally.

But when fair, genuine architectural questions are asked and the answer to those questions is this from Chris:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51411.msg1175709.html#msg1175709
Quote
Once we began to hear from folks who ... question if the designer designed it, my enthusiasm for the thread has diminished greatly.  I like things positive.

then we have a problem.

Chris posted something that pretty well stated that Jack Nicklaus personally routed Dismal River.

Quote
I was very surprised that the routing, while edgy and controversial, was splendid reflecting "Jack unplugged"... The routing is epic and fair.  If Tom Doak "perfected what is a routing" at Ballyneal, maybe Jack "reinvented what is a routing" at Dismal.

I asked a genuine question about whether he was saying that was fact, because I have read in a number of threads that Jack has never personally routed a golf course, so thought it would be interesting if we had confirmation through Chris that Nicklaus had routed DR himself.

Chris's response to that was to throw his toys out of the cot.

This isn't about Dismal River. This is about people who have little interest in architectural discussion and debate trying to paint as villains those of us who do for our temerity of wanting a discussion. I have happily participated in -- and even started -- threads about my own club/course's shortcomings, because I'm interested in the nitty-gritty (the nit-picking, in Aidan's words) of the subject and I'm not going to apologise for the fact that my genuine, uninterested curiousity about this topic offends Chris Johnston.

I understand that Dismal River is a great place to play and that the community there is fantastic. I have no doubt that is true. A good friend of mine is a member there and I'd love to visit with him. For the 201st time, I have no beef with Dismal River, its owner, its members or its designer.

And I know I am not the only one who gets frustrated when a fair question about the architecture or history of the DR golf course receives a reply about how great the cameraderie is at DR, how tasty the pork chops are or how lovely it is to sit around the firepit on a chilly evening.

As much as some people want to make this about "Dismal haters making trouble", that's not what's at play from me and I trust any intelligent observer can see this for what it is.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #169 on: March 13, 2012, 10:31:54 PM »
Well said Aidan.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #170 on: March 13, 2012, 10:36:31 PM »
Scott,

Yes, Jack did personally route this course.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #171 on: March 13, 2012, 11:20:51 PM »
Scott...

I don't know what more you want.  I went through this thread and noted the following architectural specific posts...

5
6
15
18
37
64
73
74
82
84
94
101
103
106
107
108
111
113
115
118
122
132
143
147
148
156
and Kavanaugh's last post #170 also qualifies.

Almost all were Dismal specific, except maybe on of the first (Erin Hills) and Michael George talked about Pac Dunes in one.

Also, Chris gave architectural specific discussions on the following posts...

21, 39, 75!!, 92, 130

And you, Scott, in post 70, said how illuminating Chris' posts were.


This is my main issue with this non-sense.  We've talked about Dismal (and Ballyneal) in so much detail, so many times, that nothing more can possibly be said about it.  Re-read Chris' post #75.  He even says he's answered these same questions over and over.

So, what more could you possibly need or want to know about the course?  It can't be anything...as we've talked about all issues, and posted pictures of every single hole.

I've seen you talk about your upcoming trip to Sand Hills and Ballyneal...but also noted you chose not to visit Dismal.  So, again, why do you want to continuously post about Dismal, talk about Dismal, and hound Chris with questions about it...then get testy with him for not giving you the anwers you want...even though he given answers to all questions.

Weird!  
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #172 on: March 13, 2012, 11:33:29 PM »
 ::)

You are on record stating that you expect to encounter said courses in 2012 in the following order...

Prairie Dunes
Ballyneal
Sand Hills

then you move on to the east coast of the U.S.

Perhaps your plans have changed.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 11:42:17 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #173 on: March 13, 2012, 11:45:17 PM »
Don,

My point was not in reference to DR, it was in relation to the site generally.

But when fair, genuine architectural questions are asked and the answer to those questions is this from Chris:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51411.msg1175709.html#msg1175709
Quote
Once we began to hear from folks who ... question if the designer designed it, my enthusiasm for the thread has diminished greatly.  I like things positive.

then we have a problem.

Chris posted something that pretty well stated that Jack Nicklaus personally routed Dismal River.

Quote
I was very surprised that the routing, while edgy and controversial, was splendid reflecting "Jack unplugged"... The routing is epic and fair.  If Tom Doak "perfected what is a routing" at Ballyneal, maybe Jack "reinvented what is a routing" at Dismal.

I asked a genuine question about whether he was saying that was fact, because I have read in a number of threads that Jack has never personally routed a golf course, so thought it would be interesting if we had confirmation through Chris that Nicklaus had routed DR himself.

Chris's response to that was to throw his toys out of the cot.

This isn't about Dismal River. This is about people who have little interest in architectural discussion and debate trying to paint as villains those of us who do for our temerity of wanting a discussion. I have happily participated in -- and even started -- threads about my own club/course's shortcomings, because I'm interested in the nitty-gritty (the nit-picking, in Aidan's words) of the subject and I'm not going to apologise for the fact that my genuine, uninterested curiousity about this topic offends Chris Johnston.

I understand that Dismal River is a great place to play and that the community there is fantastic. I have no doubt that is true. A good friend of mine is a member there and I'd love to visit with him. For the 201st time, I have no beef with Dismal River, its owner, its members or its designer.

And I know I am not the only one who gets frustrated when a fair question about the architecture or history of the DR golf course receives a reply about how great the cameraderie is at DR, how tasty the pork chops are or how lovely it is to sit around the firepit on a chilly evening.

As much as some people want to make this about "Dismal haters making trouble", that's not what's at play from me and I trust any intelligent observer can see this for what it is.

Thanks, Scott for the kind words.  I believe I answered your inquiry last evening, clearly and to the best of my knowledge.  You even thanked me.  Blinded by ego or hatred, or simply lying in wait for something on which to pounce, here you are!  You may not have noticed I freely and openly particpated in the discussion.  I didn't have to, but the discourse would have been left to the blind, to those like you who have never been here.

He is the problem with YOU.  YOU want to discuss that which you know nothing about.  YOU want to debate?  About what exactly?  I can't describe my house or my town for you either.  As Don mentioned, YOU haven't been to Dismal.  As this is Lent, I will restrain my remarks, but I believe your "axe" has been very visible for all to see.  You have accused, you use innuendo, you insult.  That really is small and pitiful but bigotry is like that.  Now I understand why you were banned from Max's lounge.

Let me ask YOU a question, Scott.  As to the "ambush", do you know that Jack Nicklaus, one of the most respected men in the history of golf, didn't route Dismal River. "You claim "No beef with the designer"...then why even ask the question?  To insult Jack?  To bash the club?  To insult me?  I don't much care what you "heard".  If you want the answer, call Jack.  I told you what I knew.  I hope every architect and member sees this crap.  I don't think this site is about confrontation, but that is what you have done, and do here again.  I recall Ran set out the rules for this site and you just crossed them, in spades.

Ever notice the same general crowd, including you, always shows up to cast doubt and denigrate a pretty cool place that you haven't even seen?  All you have to do is look at the threads.  Same people, every time.  The "I heard it from someone else", or "I haven't been there, but", or "I rolled my eyes" does this site and your credibility no good service.  Quite seriously, I have had enough of it and your insults.  

I don't much care if you have a good friend as a member, but I'd bet you won't be after that post.  With apologies to Ran and Ben and evreyone on this site, (counting to ten) nevermind, it isn't worth it.

To your last sentence...based upon the numerous messages I've received today, there must be a lot of (what did you call them) unitelligent observers around here.  You just insulted them too.  Well played.

I look for the good and the positive.  Scott, sadly but once again, by you actions, you are neither.  

If you would like answers, don't be a DICK.  You aren't entitled to anything.

PS, the comraderie, the pork chop, and the firepit really are good and the club really is FUN!


Mac  - don't bother.  Scott won't be making it to Dismal River anytime soon.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: A Case Study
« Reply #174 on: March 13, 2012, 11:48:54 PM »
Mac,

This has been a -- remarkably -- well managed, constructive, on-topic thread. Enlightening, too.

Reasonable questions remain outstanding, questions Chris has indicated he won't be answering. Unfortunate, but that's his prerogative.

It would be great for this thread to remain constructive and on-topic, but you appear determined to ensure otherwise.

As I previously said, your claims re: my travel plans are wide of the mark. Link me to where I said what you are claiming. Put up, or shut up.

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