WSJ - Private estate with 18 hole course in Northeast?

[Mark McKeever]

True.  It certianly is an interesting story though.

Mark

[John McCarthy]

in an attempt to calm my OCD sent the selling agent an email asking for some details on the golf course. Fully expecting the answer to be no and it duely was. you need to be able to buy it and sign a NDA.

i tried but to no avail.

OK, this transforms this piece of real estate from "estate" to "lair". 

[Mark McKeever]

We just need to find someone who is good with google maps and has a lot of spare time. 


Mark

[Mike Nuzzo]

I think we have a winner Ron?  Pretty neat and I have never heard of it. 

Mark

It's not Morfar which is owned by AIG.  Morfar does not have an estate that the web site suggests and was not designed by a celebrated international player.

From above it looks like Morfar has had some work done to at least the bunkers.
Maybe by a pro.

[Kevin_Reilly]

We just need to find someone who is good with google maps and has a lot of spare time. 

Or Hamilton B. Hearst...he undoubtedly would be on a first-name basis with the course owner.  Assuming the money was old enough.

[DonJ]

Found this... enjoy. 

http://thegolfgirl.blogspot.com/2009/08/morefar-golf-course-is-back-in.html

[Mark McKeever]

I wonder if the property sold..Did anyone follow up on this?

Mark

[Tim Gavrich]

Mark--

I'm not allowed to say.





 





Just kidding (though I wish I wasn't!). I too would be interested to hear if anyone was able to suss it out.

[Brad Tufts]

I still think its TPC Jasna Polana.

Gary Player is "one of the world's most celebrated international players"....private estate for sure...230 acres per their website...Christie's has held charity events there....and the picture posted earlier in this thread looks like TPCJP, one of the holes that circles the water feature on the front 9.

The link above is dead, and I don't see any google mentions of the course name and christie's together, save for the fact that they have hosted charity events there.

[Ronald Montesano]

http://princeton.patch.com/articles/johnson-johnson-heirs-estate-opens-its-gates-to-public


http://clermontsun.com/2012/08/16/lets-growsteve-boehmegardening-on-a-private-estate-in-new-jersey/


I think the picture is from the par three on the other side, not the big water feature on the front.

[John Ezekowitz]

Ron,

That picture is not any Par 3 at Jasna. The 17th green is hard against the water and does not have any trees near the green. 8 also plays over water, but it is a little creek/pond not nearly that big.

[Ronald Montesano]

They may have used a stock photo in the real estate ad. Good eye, John.

It seems that all signs point to Jasna Polana as a candidate.

[V. Kmetz]

I think its Hammersley Hill in Pawling, NY, just West of Quaker Hill Golf Club...
 
Like Quaker Hill, HH was part of Lowell Thomas' estate fiefdom in the 40s and 50s. It is now privately owned by the Seagram heir, and has been on the market since 2009, according to this site, which dovetails with what others have been link-posting:

http://www.jameslist.com/real_estate/united-states/new-york/new-york-the-best-kept-secret-in-the-northeast-us-451029

Also, the listing on this particular source places the property and hole painting squarely in NY, not NJ or CT, so those can be eliminated.

I think the difficulty/confusion/uncertainty is for a few factors beyond the close-to-the-vest details:

1.  It was 6 holes when first designed by RTJ in 1944, expanded to 9 some time later BUT had super long Par 7.5/8 holes among its nine, and has quite enough property to have been envisioned as 18 by the listers.  This "kooky" feature is a little more fluent when you consider Thomas' other track, Quaker Hill, which -- though only having nine holes -- plays as a near true 18 from divergent sets of back nine and front nine tees.  Obviously Thomas was into the fluidity of par and the concept of a repeatably "fun" hole.

2.  I'll bet the few bucks in my wallet that the listers have confused Robert Trent Jones  the Architect with Robert Tyre Jones Jr the immortal player hence the "world's most celebrated international players" comment.

3. Although No one ever plays it and most distinguishing features are grown over, the property manager still mows 85 acres of it and pathways of holes, if not greens, are readily seen from aerial maps.

I'm not 100% certain this is it, but I'm like 92% it is.

cheers

vk

[Mark McKeever]

Interesting find.  I would have never guessed that there were golf holes there until I looked very closely.

Mark

[Jim_Kennedy]

I think VK has it. This is a proposal for the LT estate:



You can still see some of the holes (ca.1970) using the www.historicaerials.com site. Type "Lowell Thomas Dr., Pawling, NY" into the search box.

[Kevin Lynch]

I looked at the property real close using Bing Maps and can see the bones of the course from Jim's proposal (but the greens may be stimping in the 1-2 range).

If the Hammersly Hill property is purported to have an "award winning private golf course," Christie's may have some very unhappy bidders.  Especially misleading would be the hole photo on the listing.

We either have the most inept lister in history, or our search continues.  Regardless, still an interesting bit of history from Vinnie & Jim.  Thanks, guys.

[V. Kmetz]

If it is HH...then this listing is super sketchy....of course anyone or group with the bucks to be truly interested might look at the rawness of what's left as an advantage.

Let's get a GCA group together and buy it, use it as an golf architectural school...the best of its kind in America.

I'll send my $7.46 right away!

cheers

vk

[Jim_Kennedy]

If I remember correctly the local lore about the course was that William Mitchell sorted it all out for LT.

edit: Hammersley Hill is listed for sale, but w/350 acres, not 221.

http://www.luxist.com/tag/hammersley+hill/

[V. Kmetz]

There is a fine little precis about HH if you look through the Quaker Hill site

cheers

vk

[Ronald Montesano]

I think we need to eliminate that property. It looks worse than Seamus' house was narrated in TKOSI by Michael Murphy:

http://www.esalen.org/sites/default/files/resource_attachments/kingdom_of_shivas_irons.pdf

[Kevin Lynch]

There is a fine little precis about HH if you look through the Quaker Hill site

cheers

vk

Here's the link to the article Vinnie mentioned (through the Quaker Hill site).

http://www.quakerhillcc.com/upload/stranky/users/admin/File/MG_QuakerHill.pdf


Here's what may be a really stupid question.

Is it possible that this estate sale includes both Quaker Hill Country Club AND the Hammersly Hill property?


- Quaker Hill was "rated" as a Top 25 Nine-Hole Golf Course in the US.

- Combined would provide 18 holes (or could be the confusion that Quaker Hill is listed in some places as a Par 70 with different tees).

- If you consider the confusion between Robert Trent and Robert Tyre, that may explain the famous golfer design reference

- I used Google Maps to measure the acreage of the HH "golf course" area and it was roughly 130 acres.  Quaker Hill sits on roughly 70-80 acres.  Someone indicated earlier the listing was 221 acres.  I have no idea where the boundaries lie for the HH property beyond the golf course area, but it doesn't seem like you could fit 18 on HH in any way.

- The attached article publicly discussed the listed sale of Hammersly Hill (and the first paragraph even gave the impression that the sale involved both).  However, this recent listing is much more discreet.  Could that mean Quaker Hill is added to the package?  I'm not sure if the Club owns the course or if it leased from the estate owner.  The most recent 990 filing showed a liability of "Leases Payable" (whether that's for course lease or other equipment leases - I'm not sure).


Is that at all plausible?

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm stuck on the "international" adjective; that begs non-USA born from a between-the-lines reader. RTJ/RTJ would not fit.

[Mark McKeever]

It looks like the house was torn down on the property?

Mark

[V. Kmetz]

I'm not 100% on it either RM...but I can't think of another candidate in proximity to NYC (and my link indicated it was squarely in NY State somewhere, not NJ or CT).

I grasp your point about "international" but I'm starting to give that description... stated in advertisement to get the highest price for a thing, by people with no particular expertise in GCA...less and less responsibility for what the true site is.

And, though not empirical by any means, having a painting substitute for a photograph is precisely the "sales job" necessary to inflate a defunct, now-ghostly golf course as having current vitality and estate-style beauty.  If it was so great, and so valuable why wouldn't you photograph it? Likely because there is nothing to really photograph that measures up to such a painting, a painting that someone like Lowell Thomas or the Seagram heirs might well have.

I'd really like to know though from the current horse-traders mouth.

cheers

vk

[Kevin Lynch]

I'm stuck on the "international" adjective; that begs non-USA born from a between-the-lines reader. RTJ/RTJ would not fit.

I'd be stuck on "award-winning" for TPC Jasna Polana.  It won an award for environmental leadership from the Audubon Society, and won "Best 100 Pro Shops", but neither of those would seem like huge selling points.

As for the "international" adjective, remember it's listed by Christie's and they may consider "domestic" to be England, so RTJ/RTJ may be "international" from their perspective.  Or it may be any player who played internationally (Bobby fits that).  


But, what's most important to remember is that it's Saturday night and we are such losers that we're speculating on a mystery course on GCA.