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Sven Nilsen

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One last look at the old 12th:

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Carl Rogers

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Can I ask a question about hole 13? 

I understand (slightly) that the water level of the tributary to Rae's Creek has been raised and lowered over time??  Is this true?  I understand that at one time that a recovery shot in front of the green was "possible" but now is not with later alterations?

The recovery shot would make the hole better IMO.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Chris Buie

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It's a tight tee shot now - not even close to how MacKenzie/Jones had it set up. The green is so strong that I don't think they need a national forest out there to defend the hole.

Sven Nilsen

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Can I ask a question about hole 13?  

I understand (slightly) that the water level of the tributary to Rae's Creek has been raised and lowered over time??  Is this true?  I understand that at one time that a recovery shot in front of the green was "possible" but now is not with later alterations?

The recovery shot would make the hole better IMO.

Carl:

Ask away.  The tributary was dammed from 1987 to 1996, eliminating many of the recovery shots that we have seen in recent years.  I'm not sure if the current iteration matches the version that was in place before 1987, or if now there is a bit more water in play.  I happen to really like the possibility of watching someone try to play from the hollow, or even out of shallow water.  Its one of the few areas of the course that has a truly natural feel.

Here's a photo from 2003 that shows a bit of the creek bed:

« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 01:21:17 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Kirk

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Continuing my minor contribution to the thread, it seems that most players who go for the green on #13 try to fade the ball from a hook (ball above feet) lie, even though they often end up long and left.  There's a back left shelf on the green which encourages more layups, and best attacked with a low spinning approach.

I think about Zach Johnson winning the tournament by laying up on all par fives.  Phil Mickelson hitting 6-iron from 202 yards in the pine straw.  Curtis Strange, at the top of his game, finding Rae's Creek with his second shot.  So many memorable moments here.

Augusta National presents a grand variety of special shots to execute.  I challenge anyone to name a tournament course that demands a greater variety of specific shots.

Sven Nilsen

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Last chance at eagle...

Hole 15 - Firethorn - Par 5




1934 - 485 yards - The scene of Sarazen's double-eagle in 1935.  At that time, the water (described as a ditch, ravine, creek, stream and moat) was at least 20 yards short of the green, with a gentle bank, not a steep slope, in between.

1949 - 485 yards - Downstream from the 15th, the creek was dammed and piped underground, backing up water into the hollow and creating the pond in front of the 15th (some called it a lagoon).  Its green side slope was now steeper and slicker.  A trio of pine trees in the fairway had finally grown sufficiently to become an annoyance.

1957 - 520 yards - A formal dam left of the pond was established in 1955, its walkway designated the Gene Sarazen bridge.  The next summer, dirt was hauled in to extend the tee and to create gallery mounds behind and to the right of the green.  At the suggestion of Hogan, the right-hand mound was carved into a bunker before the '57 event.

1970 - 520 yards - In 1962, George Cob widened the pond so players could clearly see its leading edge.  In 1969, the tee was moved back 40 yards, but the scorecard yardage didn't change.  Robert directed the installation of a series of high mounds on the right side of the fairway.  Meant as hazards, players ultimately used them to propel drives farther down the hole.

1999 - 500 yards - Without explanation, the official yardage was reduced to 500 yards in 1981.  In the summer of 1998, mounds in the rough were removed, and several clusters of tall pines were transplanted in that area (as well as to the left) to drastically tighten the landing zone.  Roberts' mounds on the right side of the fairway, mistakenly considered MacKenzie originals, were retained.

2011 - 530 yards - A new tee was built in 2005 30 yards back and 20 yards to the left of the old one.  From there, the preferred drive was definitely a face into the gap between the trees.  A year later, the Masters tee was extended forward about seven yards to provide the option of moving markers up in certain wind conditions.

Here are Dan's words:

"Always a short, straightaway par 5, the fifteenth has forever been reachable in two, initially because Bobby Jones believed that all par 5s potentially should be, and more recently because the presence of the eleventh fairway leaves no room to extend the tee back any further.  Though, at a glance, things may not look too different today relative to the early years, the hole has seen its fair share of changes.

First, what began as a smallish creek meandering before the green was eventually widened, and enlarged into today’s famous pond, though accounts of just when this took place vary, ranging from 1947 through the early 1960’s.  Also, a mound sitting just off the right edge of the putting surface was replaced by a bunker – at the apparent suggestion of Ben Hogan – in 1957.  Additional mounds around the green have been added and removed, and a controversial series of mounds were added on the right side of the driving zone in 1969.

Of course, nothing has affected the fifteenth quite so much as the effect of trees along its fairway – and not just those installed around the new millennium.  Once upon a time, the plain that encompasses parts of the second, third, seventh, fifteenth and seventeenth fairways was largely a wide open stretch, dotted only with the occasional pine tree.  Two of those original pines formed the foundation of the large cluster of trees that now cuts into the left side of the fifteenth’s driving zone – so that particular copse is not entirely contrived – but the budding mini-forest which now occupies a stretch of former right-side fairway most certainly is.

And then there is a subtle, yet hugely important, agronomical difference: with the slope separating the front of the green from the pond now maintained with the firmness of a billiard table, the margin for error on approaches coming up fractionally short has been reduced to near nothing – a circumstance which affects heavily spun pitches more than longer irons from atop the hill, and thus might actually induce more players to go for the green in two.

Better Then or Now?

One certainly sympathizes with Masters officials who’ve grown weary of watching longer hitters reach the fifteenth green with short-iron seconds, so the hole’s recent lengthening to 530 yards certainly makes sense.  The problem, once again, lies with the addition of rough and trees, both of which run directly against the philosophy of Bobby Jones, who specifically wanted players to have a go at this green in two.  Jones wrote favorably of the fifteenth that “The tee shot may be hit almost anywhere without encountering trouble,” because he considered this a necessity in setting up the unique approach that has produced so many of championship golf’s most thrilling moments."

I actually think that this is one hole at Augusta where placing a premium on placement of the tee shot is appropriate (the method of doing so is still up for debate).  The reward is a shot at the green, the penalty for poor execution is to have to lay up (with birdie still an option).  That being said, the second into the 15th green is one of a few standout moments in the closing stretch of the tournament.  There's a fine line between building up the excitement and still asking the golfer to execute shots in order to be in a position to make a move.

As we've seen in recent years, the tournament committee has the ability to change the conditioning around the 15th to make the hole easier or harder, depending on the intentions of the year.  With a bit of rough on the bank, the penalty for a miss short is alleviated slightly.  Of course, if you haven't maneuvered through the obstacle course in the fairway, the length of the grass on the bank has little effect.

Reading Dan's comments makes me think that the nature of this hole should be dominated by the pin positions, and the fairway should be set up so that the player has the opportunity to place their tee shot in the ideal position for attacking the day's location.  I think I'd rather hear the commentators discussing how Player A's drive leaves them a tough angle into the narrow left side of the green, as opposed to hearing them discuss how they are going to play their layup from the pine straw.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 03:37:31 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
I disagree with Daniel Wexler's commentary on #14.  He says:

"Better preserved has been the green, a true roller coaster of a putting surface whose enormous bumps and undulations lead to all manner of creative approach shots each April.  ...  But watching the occasional smartly played Masters approach land thirty feet from the pin, turn 90 degrees, then ultimately trickle down to within inches of the cup, one cannot help but recognize that this remains, in many ways, the last true footprint of Dr. MacKenzie at Augusta."

--  Daniel Wexler

I strongly disagree with this comment.  I think there is very little creativity expressed on #14 by the tournament players.  Even though the approach is sometimes played several yards away from the target, this is one of those Masters holes where there's little room for error, a "five foot circle" that must be hit to get the short birdie putt.  I get the feeling every player tries to hit a high soft approach in exactly the same place every time.  I don't see the creativity at all.  You have to know where to hit it, and then hit the high soft one right there.


Sven Nilsen

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Continuing what I hope is considered a critical analysis, not to be misconstrued as criticism.

Hole 16 - Redbud - Par 3




1934 - 145 yards - Originally patterned after the 7th at England's Stoke Poges (now Stoke Park), it green was guarded by the same creek that downstream still edges the 13th.  The tee was just right of the 15th green.  In 1941, a tee honoring Sarazen was added left of the 15the green, 50 feet from the hole location for his double eagle in 1935.

1937 - 145 yards - After the 2nd Masters, the green was expanded to the left, and the two hillside bunkers were pulled closer to the green, creating some testy hole locations between the stream and the sand.  A huge knob - similar to the mound in the 6th green - dominated the widest portion of the putting surface.  Despite the changes, Jones considered this a weak link.

1948 - 190 yards - Just after WWII, Jones joined R.T. Jones in designing Peachtree Golf Club, which lead to Trent being invited to handle changes at Augusta.  Trent suggested rotating the 16th hole 90 degrees, damming the creek into a pond and creating a new tee at one end and a new green, with two bunkers, at the other end.  Greenkeeper Marion Luke built the suggested changes.

1949 - 190 yards - The summer after the changes were made, Trent raised the height of the back terrace and added a tiny third bunker on the left.  He also dammed and piped underground a stream that had previously split the tee box.  Up that stream, his work formed the pond in front of the 15th.  In 1950, Roberts poured bags of copper sulphate into the pond on 16 to turn its muddy water blue.

1966 - 190 yards - In 1959, the creek that crossed the 6th fairway and fed into the pond on 16 was piped underground, but a narrow next of exposed water was retained as a hazard left of the 16th green.  In 1966, that net was piped underground so that shots long and left no longer ended up wet.  The back left corner of the green was also abandoned, and the area was regraded into a tightly mowed slope.

2011 - 170 yards - In 1999, the green was reconstructed to gain more hole locations at the front and back.  In 2006, the green complex was rebuilt again, and the surrounding bunkers were made much deeper.  The latest construction activity has occurred across the pond, in the area of the original 16th green.  The vast comfortable viewing are for spectators has been improved by expanding it and adding an access staircase from the fifth green.

From Dan:

"The famed par-3 sixteenth, site of so much Masters lore and the last of the layout’s true all-or-nothing tests, bears the unique distinction of being the only hole which was not a part of the original Jones and MacKenzie design.  Indeed, their original sixteenth hole – now virtually forgotten – was listed at 145 yards and ran nearly due west, emanating from alternate tees on either side of the fifteenth green.  Its putting surface sat in an area between the present hole’s pond and the edge of the sixth fairway, and was flanked closely on its right by the creek that once crossed the sixth, and not so closely on its left by a pair of bunkers.  MacKenzie cited the seventh at England’s Stoke Poges Golf Club as its inspiration (a rather more obscure choice than earlier St. Andrews and North Berwick influences) and seemed generally to have liked the hole.

Unfortunately, club officials were less enamored with it.  Clifford Roberts estimated that the original actually measured little more than 110 yards and, we are told, early Masters participants found it far too easy.  Thus Robert Trent Jones was brought aboard in 1947 to construct the present, highly dramatic sixteenth, reportedly executing a concept laid out by Bobby Jones himself.

Better Then or Now?

For the purpose of The Masters, it is difficult to argue that the current hole – despite offering little more than two really effective pin placements on a larger-than-average green – isn’t far better suited to the rigors and excitement of modern tournament play.  For the membership, however, the old sixteenth might have held more charm (and obviously more MacKenzie flavor), particularly as there was room to lengthen at least its left-side tee considerably.  But on balance, it would be hard to suggest that the modern hole doesn’t better suit the club’s all-around purposes, the staleness of Trent Jones’s aesthetics (at least relative to Dr. MacKenzie) notwithstanding."

Mickelson noted that the plateau on the top right of the green has been expanded for this year's tournament, making what had been a very difficult pin position not quite as difficult.

Did Jones and MacKenzie miss the mark on this one?  Seeing as two holes (the 12th and the 16th) have been compared to the 7th at Stoke Park, the change in alignment and placement of the water hazard have created a greater diversity in the styles of the par 3's at Augusta.  The back left pin on Sunday adds one last hold your breath moment to the tournament, with the occasional player missing the mark, finding the pond and dashing their hopes.  There's plenty of room to miss right, but there's little reward in leaving one up on the high side of the green.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 03:38:26 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Howard Riefs

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New, subtle changes to #8 and #16 greens, reports Augusta Chronicle:

http://www.augusta.com/masters/story/news/latest-news/players-notice-subtle-changes-8th-16th-greens
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

John Kirk

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Continuing what I hope is considered a critical analysis, not to be misconstrued as criticism.

I'll assume this is a response to my one criticism of Mr. Wexler's analysis.  If so, I reserve the right to disagree with him once.

Patrick_Mucci

You can see the changes in the 9th green over the years. Which one do you think is best?

The fairway has been greatly narrowed. Is there anybody who thinks that makes it a better course for the members?

Chris, what year was the top photo taken ?
Are you positive that's # 9 ?




Sven Nilsen

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Pat:

That is definitely 9.  The fairway in the background in the first photo is the 1st fairway.  If you look at the stand of trees in the "V" between the 1st and 10th fairways in the first two photos, you can see the same groupings of trees.

The original green had a horseshoe shape, as depicted in the first photo.  The boomerang or horseshoe green was changed in 1938, so the photo must be in the '34-'38 time period.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Here is the original 16th green. The original tee was almost connected to the right side of the 15th green.

Matthew Essig

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Here is the original 16th green. The original tee was almost connected to the right side of the 15th green.


If the hole played like it looks like (a back-left shelf, a front-left bowl, and a back-right bowl), I think the hole would play more challenging but fair and dramatic. IMO, the hole would play better then than now. With the back-right bowl, it would add some major drama. IMO, the Sunday pin in the back-right would be more entertaining then than now because it would challenge the players, but if you hit a good shot, it would stay in/go into the bowl and you would make a birdie, while now there is a ton of area that you can hit your ball and end up close to have a tap-in birdie. While the birdies and eagles being made everywhere you look on the back-nine on Sunday is amazing, it would join the other holes on the back nine where a eagle--double or worse could be made on Sunday, too. As it is now, you never see a player make worse than a par in the last 10 groups on Sunday, it feels like.

I understand what I described the old hole like isn't exactly what it looks like in the photo, but over time, I think that is what the hole would have turned into (a bowl front-left, a shelf back-left, and a bowl in the back-right; as well as the water tighter to the green or having a steeper slope into it and the bunkers coming much closer to the green)

You could also make 17 longer with the moved green.

Bring back the original layout!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 06:55:58 PM by Matthew Essig »
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Matthew Essig

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Do you like the new layout of 16 or the original layout of 16?
« Reply #89 on: April 03, 2012, 06:57:34 PM »
deleted
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 06:59:42 PM by Matthew Essig »
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Sven Nilsen

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Mac has graciously allowed me to borrow some of his photos taken during his practice round visit.  I've updated each hole with a shot that highlights some of the areas discussed in the write-up.

Chris Buie, who has been a stalwart in updating the thread with photos from his collection, provided the following six pictures from the early days.  See if you can guess what holes:

A.  

B.  

C.  

D.  

E.  

F.  

G.  
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 08:41:06 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'll have a go...

A. #2
B. #14
C. #7
D. #8 (100% certain; have seen this photo referenced elsewhere)
E. #6 - obviously in that very brief period where there was a pond there. Great find!
F. #8 (original green, I assume)
G. #3
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Alex Miller

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A. #10
B. #8
C. #17 (?)
D. #8
E. #6
F. #8
G. #3

Sven Nilsen

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You guys are right on D-G.  For your A-C guesses, only one correct answer so far.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
I should have looked at A closely.... didn't see the green on the hill. Almost looks like it could be #6 again.

B and C were total guesses for me.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Alex Miller

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You guys are right on D-G.  For your A-C guesses, only one correct answer so far.

Still stumped on C, but upon further review I would guess #6 for A. Confident in my guess on B though.



edit: Looks like Matthew and I were thinking the same thing for A.

Sven Nilsen

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Alex:

You're right on A and B.  C is kind of tough.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Matthew Essig

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Is C #1?

Or #9

Never mind. I'm sticking with 1

Actually it might be 9

I don't know!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 10:07:03 PM by Matthew Essig »
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
C is the 2nd.  Kind of tough to pick up from the photo, which I am guessing is taken from the front left.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would have never guessed that.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

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