[Tim Martin]

  If you are going to travel half way around the world don't you want it to be top 100?

Anthony-There are some pretty fine golf courses scattered around the globe that don`t find their way into any top 100 lists. Now if you are on a belt notching mission then that`s a horse of a different color.

  I am a belt notching whore.

In other words you are a whore with values. I like that.

[Dan King]

Life is too short and I only play top-100 golf courses. Naturally it is my own list of top-100 courses, but that is the only list that matters to me.

Cheers,
Dan King

The most beautiful of all courses we have made is Cypress Point, and at the same time it is also the most difficult of all our courses. When we constructed Cypress Point we expected we should be snowed under by hostile criticism.
 --Alister MacKenzie

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Yup.  That's me.  95% of my rounds are on The Ocean Course, a top 100 course.  I've played it over 300 times since I took a PR position for the resort in 1999.  During that time, I've shot par on both nines but I've never shot in the 70s.  There's always a hole or two that sneaks up to bite you.  As a pro said during a Senior PGA interview in 2007, "On most courses, if you miss a shot, it might be a bogie.  Here,  if you miss a shot, it very well could be an "other.""  Golf Digest named it America's toughest course.  GOLF magazine has it as the 4th toughest course in America.  Kerry Haigh has the initial yardage for this year's PGA Championship at 7,676 yards, the longest major in history.  What could possibly go wrong for the pros....?  Blow wind, blow!

[Sam Morrow]

I know of members of this site who will only play Top 100's, they find it beneath them to play anything else.

[Tom_Doak]

I have met panelist types who would not go ACROSS THE STREET to play a cool course that wasn't in the top 100, when they were in town to make a particular notch on their belts.

Some of them had to go back to Japan years later to play Tokyo Golf Club, because they hadn't considered it the first time through when they were next door at Kasumigaseki.  [I hope it cost them a lot!]  Plenty of examples in the US, as well.  That was one of the things The Confidential Guide was about ... so you wouldn't miss the course next door.

[Mark Pearce]

How shallow an experience of golf you would get if you only played "Top 100" courses.  I would quite happily play any of the excellent courses Sean Arble profiles but none of them are "Top 100".  If I only played "Top 100" courses, I would never have played Kington.  I can honestly say that there are a number of "Top 100" courses I have played and enjoyed that are less fun than Kington.  Not that they are not fun, mind, just not as much fun as Kington.

How can anyone possibly claim to have a perspective on golf courses if they only ever sample the top fraction of a percent?  If that was how I chose where to play when, for instance, I visit the USA I would never have played Charles River, George Wright or Lawsonia Links.  My lifetime experience as a golfer would, for various reasons, be poorer had I missed any of those three.

[Pete Blaisdell]

I can't add anything to what Mark said, he was spot on . Could not say it any better.

To limit oneself in choice of courses to play is sad.

As I have said on a number of occasions--GOLF COURSES ARE LIKE WIVES AND THE PROM QUEEN DOES NOT ALWAYS MAKE FOR THE BEST WIFE!!

[Anthony Gray]

I can't add anything to what Mark said, he was spot on . Could not say it any better.

To limit oneself in choice of courses to play is sad.

As I have said on a number of occasions--GOLF COURSES ARE LIKE WIVES AND THE PROM QUEEN DOES NOT ALWAYS MAKE FOR THE BEST WIFE!!

  No. But they sure are pretty.

[Pete Blaisdell]

Touche Anthony!

[JR Potts]

Nope, when available to play, I'll play anywhere.  I really couldn't care less.

[Jud_T]

The attitude that we play off-the-run hidden gems instead of the top 100 is just as elitist, or reverse snobbery.  We're playing place like Rustic, Kingsley and Lawsonia in lieu of some of the bigger name course that we think are overrated and priced accordingly.  I'm the poster boy for this.  The Last 10 thread a while back shed light on the fact that most here are in fact playing top 200-300 courses, just perhaps the GCA 300 rather than Digest's.  When we host an event at Legends Moorland, Ballybunion Cashen, the Bear at Traverse City, or the Deerfield, IL muni let me know...

[PCCraig]

Outside of our circle here, we may as well be seen as golf hipsters.

We need a Golf Club Atlas version of this guy:

http://www.quickmeme.com/Hipster-Barista/  

[Mark Pearce]

Jud,

I'm struggling to understand the point you are making.  However, I don't see anyone suggesting that they "only" play underrated hidden gems, or that any ranking is full of overrated over-expensive courses.  I played yesterday with some friends at Muirfield.  It has, from time to time, been rated Top 10 in the World, a rating I think it justifies (though I have met many people whose opinions I value, even if I don't agree, who don't think it is top 10 in the UK).  Next time we play together will be at Brancepeth Castle a good course that doesn't make a UK Top 100.  Neither decision had anything to do with rankings.  Both had much to do with quality and value.

Yes, most people here will play a higher proportion of better courses than most but that's not surprising, is it, on a discussion board whose subject matter is golf course architecture?  What is clear is that most here are happy, indeed keen, to explore off the beaten track courses.  During my trip to the States last year, as well as playing one World Top 10 course, two others that make Top 100 lists and Lawsonia I also played Pacific Grove, Sharp Park and Spring Valley.  I know several GCAers who visit the UK for BUDA (or otherwise) and make a point of playing off the beaten track, as well as some of the headline courses.  This isn't driven by any reverse snobbery or train spotting like desire to tick boxes but by a genuine interest in what's out there.

[Jud_T]

Mark,

It may not be snobbery, and I love Spring Valley,  but my guess is Ryan's "I don't really care, I'll tee it up anywhere" attitude is in the distinct minority here.  I won't tee it up anywhere anymore, I've got better things to do, like taking a nap while the networks broadcast tortoise putting contests.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

One thing is for sure - there is a lot of inverse snobbery out there!! As wonderful a course as it is, anyone who would choose to play Rustic without even considering LACC or Riviera is probably a proud contrarian.

Really, is there a lot of it?

If I had a choice to play either Riviera or Rustic Canyon, it would come down to whether I could afford it or not.

I don't get many opportunities to play other courses, so I have the same attitude as Ryan. My last 10 courses would confirm this.

[Mark Pearce]

Brian,

I can say with confidence that, given the choice of playing Rustic or Riviera, my first consideration would be who I would be playing each course with.  My second consideration would be the quality of the course and, yes, Riviera would win out (having played neither course I would assume Riviera would be the better course from discussions on here).  What would absolutely not play a role in my decision between those two would be rankings, since I would rather rely on people's descriptions.

[Craig Van Egmond]

If I had the choice between Rustic and Riveria (which I don't, that's  key), there would be no choice. While I love Rustic dearly (hole in 1 on #8!!!), I would sell off my copy of Confidential Guide to play the Riv.   

[Mark Pearce]

Brian,

Golf is a social sport.  Company is the starting point for me.  A good friend of mine, who no longer lives in the UK, had the fortune to play Pine Valley just about a year after he, I and two other GCAers had stopped in Fife for a game at Balcomie.  He told me that, much as he had loved PV (which he believed to be head and shoulders better than anything else he had ever played) he would, of the two experiences, choose the day at Balcomie for the company.  That strikes me as the right approach to these things.

Mark

[David Harshbarger]

Mark,

If PV isn't in your regular rota, playing it once would be nice to be able to make that comparison to a day with friends at Balcomie.

In my last 10, is Ondawa Greens, http://www.ondawagreens.com/greens.html, a rough hewn course in an otherwise golfless area nearby.  This course wouldn't be in anyone's top 10,000, but playing it, and seeing the steady stream of players coming in while we were there, I learned a lesson about the true beauty and power of golf that there's no way you could learn from any Top 10, 100, or 1,000 course.  

Strip away all of the trappings, the architecture, the strategy, the logo belts, the compliementary range balls, the gate-keeper's invitee list, the Tif-Eagle, and even greens that run smooth, and people still love chasing that white ball around a field.  In fact, Ondawa Greens has to be as close to an early 19th century golf course as you can get today, and you know what, it's still fun.

So as much as I look forward to future opportunities to play Top 10 courses, and you can believe I'll brag on it in my shallow callous way if and when I can add those notches to my belt, I pity folks who's focus is so narrow that they miss so many other ways that golf can be experienced, and enjoyed, that no Top 10 course can provide.

If anyone is up Saratoga way, I'd be honored to make a date to play Ondawa (and my club, Battenkill) to share these Not 10 courses with them.

Dave

[Mark Pearce]

Brian,

The premise of the thread is that there are people who "only" play Top 100 courses.  Then there is a suggestion that some on this board operate some form of inverse snobbery.  My point is that for me, company is a more important factor.  I thought it was clear from my previous posts that I wasn't assuming the same company.

I don't buy the "inverse snobbery" point, by the way.  I am yet to come across anyone on this board or elsewhere who operates a form of inverse snobbery.  Who has ever suggested that, all other factors being equal, they would play Rustic over Riviera?  Even Sean Arble, the king of the second tier courses, has a very balanced and fair view of absolute quality (though value is important to him), even if he is completely wrong about Muirfield.

[Jud_T]

David,

What were the other 9?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Of course if I am getting to play Rustic Canyon with Tommy N., then screw the Riv.   

[Mark Pearce]

If PV isn't in your regular rota, playing it once would be nice to be able to make that comparison to a day with friends at Balcomie.

It would indeed be nice.  I would, in fact, jump at the opportunity to make the comparison.  Preferably with good company on hand.  It's also true to say that it's easier for the man who has both played PV and been there at Balcomie to express a preference for the latter than it is for me, never having been to PV.

If anyone is up Saratoga way, I'd be honored to make a date to play Ondawa (and my club, Battenkill) to share these Not 10 courses with them.

You can rest assured that if I ever am, I will give you a shout and take you up on that offer.  

[C. Squier]

Brian,

Golf is a social sport.  Company is the starting point for me.  A good friend of mine, who no longer lives in the UK, had the fortune to play Pine Valley just about a year after he, I and two other GCAers had stopped in Fife for a game at Balcomie.  He told me that, much as he had loved PV (which he believed to be head and shoulders better than anything else he had ever played) he would, of the two experiences, choose the day at Balcomie for the company.  That strikes me as the right approach to these things.

Mark

"Hey buddy, I slept with a super model who confused me for Brad Pitt in a whirlwind, once-in-a-lifetime, never-gonna-happen-again trip to Vegas last week.  But my girlfriend is soooo nice....I'll take her any day."

[David Harshbarger]

David,

What were the other 9?

Jud,

What are the other 9 "Not 10"?  Everything that's not on aligned on the trajectory towards the top 10?

Ondawa Greens is a course that I don't even think fits within the Doak scale.  It's like a Doak i (sqrt(-1)).  It doesn't even pretend to be a 1, and it's not pretentious like a 0.  

I don't know the names of 9 others like it, but I am going to kepp an eye out for them in my travels.

Dave

Mark, it's a deal.  Looking forward to it.

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