[Tiger_Bernhardt]

We discussed how slow the college players were in another thread. I watch part of the Louisiana Classics Monday and Today. My beloved Tigers dusted the field so a happy Tiger I am. Now the Tigers are whipping Tulane in baseball so it is an especially good day.  However not only was play painfully slow. I had forgotten how stupid many of these really good players are. Oakbourne has a few real good strategic holes. 75% of the players took the risk rather than playing smart.  On a 140 yard par 3 15 guys made a 5 or higher today. It was playing 160 with the wind. The green is plenty big but has water on the front 1/3 and tough traps left long and right. the pin was a sucker placement today where the water surounds the pin on 3 sides.  If you miss the green you will get a double. Anybody with a brain plays to the middle of the green and make a 3 and move on. The next hole is a drivable par 4. Same deal if you miss you are starring a bogie or double. They only need to hit a 5 iron to have a wedge or less, yet the driver came out and the scores went up. I remember when Knost played for SMU a few years ago. He made a double double during the practice round. At dinner, I said man it is easy par par or par birdie if you play smart. He did but it took 30 minutes to talk him into it plus a bad experience.  It would seem with the high level of experience these guys get now, that course management would be better for a larger number of them. Do you guys think the college players play enough good strategic courses to really learn that par tof the game?

[Mike Sweeney]

It would seem with the high level of experience these guys get now, that course management would be better for a larger number of them.

Completely disagree!!

Eventually people can learn "course management". You can't learn how to have the guts and ability to shoot for the back pin at Yale #9 in the NCAA's. It is just what separates the 20-30 kids per year that have a shot at making a living at golf vs playing Division I golf.

In addition, I think the ability to bounce back from those misses down the road can really help.

Tiger,

On college football terms, take your pick: Frank Spaziani or Nick Saban!?

[Jason Topp]

John:

You might enjoy this description of my playing partners in an event last summer

 " In the final round I was paired with three kids who played for college teams.  After watching how far they hit the ball, I questioned how these guys could have shot the same score as me in the first round.  I soon got my answer.  The entire course is on the side of a hill.  These guys had a hard time figuring out that the hill would influence the speed of their putts.  If they figure that out, I will never play with them again."

[Sam Morrow]

Tiger here is my take having both played college golf and having been to Oakbourne. Just like at any level there are players who manage the course well and there are others who are brain dead at managing their way around the course. To me one of the great charms of Oakbourne is the fact you must know the course to score well. It's a course where you must know where to position your tee shots, more so in fact than most courses they probably play. I wouldn't be surprised if the boys from UL played well since they knew their way around the course. I'll use your Tigers as an example, to score at Oakbourne you need to know your way around, at The University Club you need to hit it straight up in the air and fly it 330.

[Matthew Petersen]

I never played college golf, but I had much the same experience when I played in high school. I was the best player at my relatively small school but our conference included a couple huge public schools and a couple private schools where some really good players made the team (Kevin Stadler, for one, plus several other guys who have gone on to careers in golf whether as club pros and on mini tours).

I was definitely not as good at golf as any of the other #1s that i was paired with in tournament after tournament. All those guys hit it further than me, putted better than me, etc etc. And yet, for the most part, I could hang with them, because I knew how to manage my game and thought a lot about holes and courses and how to play them. I was always the guy a lot more likely to make a bunch of pars and a few bogeys, but that would still put me right there against guys who could make birdies but were also susceptible to huge numbers. I also always got a kick out of how those guys complained about certain holes when it was so clear that they just didn't "get it."

[Jim Eder]

I am amazed at how good the college kids (and the top juniors) are nowadays.  They hit the ball so far and control it.  But I tend to agree that course management tends to lack a bit.  They have so much talent but they just don't have the experience yet.  I also get a sense that they feel like they have to be aggressive and that to lay up might be viewed as weakness. Bomb and gouge type golf. Dustin Johnson, Bubba etc. How many of the college kids look up to Luke Donald?  I always enjoyed watching Corey Pavin (around Riviera).

I think Tiger is right in questioning whether they play enough strategic courses. UCLA plays them but many others just don't have that privilege.  I get a sense that that is an issue.

There is also such a focus on distance now.  But there is also a maturity issue I believe.  I think of myself.  As one matures and gets more experience I think course management just gets better.  And if one is fortunate enough to speak to people like Tiger etc they are way ahead of the others.

I have played with a few college players in fundraisers etc. and several AJGA kids in the junior Ams so my sample size is not huge but this is the typical theme I have witnessed.  Probably not statistically significant but jsut thought I would put my two cents in to what I have seen.

I will say I really like the young golfers coming up and think they are amazingly talented. The mental aspect will take them to the next level.

[Jud_T]

I was at the Western Am at Skokie last year and was really impressed with how good these kids are.  Some of the up and downs I saw them make from ridiculous spots had to be seen in person to be believed.  I think it's their supreme confidence in their short games that keeps them aggressive.  It is indeed a game to which we are not familiar.

[Matthew Petersen]

I am amazed at how good the college kids (and the top juniors) are nowadays.  They hit the ball so far and control it.  But I tend to agree that course management tends to lack a bit.  They have so much talent but they just don't have the experience yet.  I also get a sense that they feel like they have to be aggressive and that to lay up might be viewed as weakness. Bomb and gouge type golf. Dustin Johnson, Bubba etc. How many of the college kids look up to Luke Donald?  I always enjoyed watching Corey Pavin (around Riviera).

I think Tiger is right in questioning whether they play enough strategic courses. UCLA plays them but many others just don't have that privilege.  I get a sense that that is an issue.

There is also such a focus on distance now.  But there is also a maturity issue I believe.  I think of myself.  As one matures and gets more experience I think course management just gets better.  And if one is fortunate enough to speak to people like Tiger etc they are way ahead of the others.

I have played with a few college players in fundraisers etc. and several AJGA kids in the junior Ams so my sample size is not huge but this is the typical theme I have witnessed.  Probably not statistically significant but jsut thought I would put my two cents in to what I have seen.

I will say I really like the young golfers coming up and think they are amazingly talented. The mental aspect will take them to the next level.

I think you are right that maturity is a big part of it.

We're talking about 20 year-olds. Why should we be surprised they just want to hit the big stick?

[Jim Eder]

As kids many of us think we are invincible.  As Jud points out, many have great short games, the kids figure "I can get it up and down". A 5 footer for par, easy. They don't have fear, many haven't figured out consequences.  A big number is easily forgotten as supreme confidence is often typical of successful kids. It is only when we get older (and maybe have less skill) where we start wondering if we can get it up and down or out of trouble.  It is very common to become more conservative as one gets older.

[SL_Solow]

How was the pace of play?

[Tim Gavrich]

I think no matter the age, the better you get, the better you think you are.  I played in college and always saw other players play too agressively just because they thought they could hit a certain shot.  I fell prey to that overconfidence too.  IT's important to learn the doctrine of "Just because you CAN, it doesn't mean you SHOULD."  The 7-out-of-10 rule is also an important one to internalize.

I must also add that golfers of all ages and skill levels try shots they oughtn't.  I encountered it while caddying last summer.  Many times my player would find himself in the rough, contemplating hitting a long iron.  He'd ask my opinion sometimes and I would often recommend he lay up to his favorite wedge distance and make no worse than a bogey.  He'd ignore my advice, hit the foolish club and make his double bogey.

Bottom line: it's hard to convince the weekend golfer to lay up.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

SL 5.5 hours. Your Illinois team had a bad tourney. they have better players than they showed as does NC State. Mike a smart golfer do not go for that back corner if missing it puts them in a double bogie situation. The fact you can do it does not mean you should in a team or individual competition. Nick is not a bad guy to play golf with if your idea of a good golfing mate is Putin. All in all I would just as soon watch him float away on a slow boat to hell with a web cam for the tiger faithful to cherish every minute of his trip to the land down below. I do not know the other guy well enough to form an opinion. Sam, Oakbourne is a classic strategic course. I just picked 9 and 10 to watch a lot of guys come by to form an opinion.Oddly the local boys stunk it up. I was surprised LSU smoked the field. You are right their home course is a tour bomb it long type course. The coach seems to think that way as well. I have been watching the college players play this way for years. I really started noticing a big change when Tiger came along and many started trying to mimic his swing. It just goes back to our discussions about the designs we like on GCA, the tour promoting slow play and lots of birdies over thinking etc.

[Sam Morrow]

SL 5.5 hours. Your Illinois team had a bad tourney. they have better players than they showed as does NC State. Mike a smart golfer do not go for that back corner if missing it puts them in a double bogie situation. The fact you can do it does not mean you should in a team or individual competition. Nick is not a bad guy to play golf with. But I would just as soon watch him do it on a slow boat to hell with a web cam. Sam, Oakbourne is a classic strategic course. I just picked 9 and 10 to watch a lot of guys come by to form an opinion.Oddly the local boys stunk it up. I was surprised LSU smoked the field. You are right their home course is a tour bomb it long type course. The coach seems to think that way as well. I have been watching the college players play this way for years. I really started noticing a big change when Tiger came along and many started trying to mimic his swing. It just goes back to our discussions about the designs we like on GCA, the tour promoting slow play and lots of birdies over thinking etc.

Doesn't Winstead have an academy on the back of the range at University Club?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Sam Chuck is a good teacher and the Tigers have a top notch indoor and outdoor practice facility. It is not Stanford but very good. I just have never felt he understood architecture. That is a common trait on the tour and in the world of instructors as well.

[Sam Morrow]

Sam Chuck is a good teacher and the Tigers have a top notch indoor and outdoor practice facility. It is not Stanford but very good. I just have never felt he understood architecture. That is a common trait on the tour and in the world of instructors as well.

I could park myself on that range at University Club all day.

[Ken Moum]

Last June I did two rounds as a walking scorer for the NCAA National Championships in Stillwater, OK.

The first day I had Peter Uihlein, Pat Cantlay and Bud Cauley, three of the best amateurs on the planet at the time.

Second day I had Bo Hoag, Cameron Peck and

Two things,

Bo is the slowest player I have ever seen--ANYWHERE. Sadly, Cameron is one of the fastest.  If I'd been him, I'd have been forced to...

Uihlein (on his home course) and Cantlay were astonishingly fearless.

But to be honest, when you can hit play a 471-yard par four with a three wood and an eight iron, as Uihlein did, conventional strategy may not seem all that necessary. Still, he started 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 3, which put him 5 under through seven but "only" shot 68 on a 7400-yard course.

Cantlay shot the same score, without the fireworks.  But he did demonstrate how important it is to never give up on a hole when he hit it over the green on the sixth.  Between two trees in foot-high grass, he had to take an unplayable--which forced him to drop in that same grass.  From there he got up and down for bogey.

I did see examples of questionable thinking, but their belief in themselves (justifiable, IMHO) is so high they don't often see the need to play safe.

K

[JR Potts]

As a former college golfer, albeit poor one, there wasn't a risk I didn't love taking...and yes, I wasn't alone.

That said, that could be the reason why 99% of college golfers are now 2 handicap working stiffs like me.

[BVince]

As a former college golfer, albeit poor one, there wasn't a risk I didn't love taking...and yes, I wasn't alone.

That said, that could be the reason why 99% of college golfers are now 2 handicap working stiffs like me.

JR,

I fit your statement perfectly as I had a similar experience. 

I never fully possessed the ability to hit the ball exactly where I aimed although that didn't stop me from trying.  I was and still am a much better player in my mind than on the course.  Maybe some of the collegiate guys are trying a safe shot but unable to pull it off as desired.

Tiger,

I wondered the same thing watching the PGA Tour guys at Riveria as I did not see anyone lay up into the 10th green.  I have not played the hole, but those guys are so great with a sand/lob wedge off the fairway, how come they didn't try a more strategic approach to the tee shot versus blasting away and leaving it all to the short game.  These are the guys that are setting the example for all rising collegiate players, both with their "strategic" approach to the game and lightning fast pace of play.  I do not think that it is a lack of exposure to strategic designs as much as the modern day examples of the "grip it and rip it" methodology.  I only specifically remember one key example of a golfer using a strategy to win a tournament and that was Zach Johnson's approach to the par 5s at the Masters.  Although I am a huge fan, it definitely wasn't Mickelson's drive for show approach to 18 at Winged Foot.

So the question may be, how do we get more top level golfers to play strategically?  More penal short par 4s?  Ultimately, the top level golfers will have to find it more rewarding to lay up or play smartly in an attempt to score better.  Very interesting topic.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Byron and Jr thanks for input from the real guys. I was good enough to play college golf, just not at LSU. So that was the end of that for me.  I think it starts with the USGA, R&A and Augusta National Golf Club. I think the USGA has the chance to do it with leaving a little more thinking in the course and less just long and straight. The Tour has shown their hole card and it is grip it and rip it. Phil has shown more restraint thus far this year than ever. He has looked good as a thinking golfer too. At the end of the day is what wins tourneys. I still believe that smart and managing ones game beats strong and fearless in golf. I am amazed the guys do not shoot 62 every round with only short irons in their hands all day. Of course they now hit a 7 iron the distance I hit or used to hit a rescue club. lol

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