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Anthony Gray

Golfers turned architects
« on: March 08, 2012, 08:14:03 PM »


  Do developers favor them. Do they have an unfair advantage for projects. How much work do they actually do on their designs.

  Anthony


Sam Morrow

Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 11:42:26 PM »


  Do developers favor them. Do they have an unfair advantage for projects. How much work do they actually do on their designs.

  Anthony



Fred Couples did all the work at The Bridges.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2012, 04:25:53 AM »
My take:

Question 1:

There used to be figures knocking around that showed how much the revenue from real estate increased if the accompanying golf course was designed by a big name pro…. Hence the desire to hire big name pros…. At some point, the proliferation of this activity knocked over in to the public’s perception that big name pro = quality golf course… This was a bad development because the hiring of most was all about money…. With a bit of luck, the tide may be turning back because real estate isn’t in the picture so much.

Question 2:

For generalisation purposes, I divide pros turned architects in to three categories:

1. Retired golfer with a love and knowledge of architecture who now earns his primary living this way and does most of the work (though rarely the gnat’s ass detail from cradle to grave) himself.
2. Golfer (usually semi-retired) who has set up his own design firm, loves GCA but still has many other commitments. Whilst he enjoys and carries out many of the high-end and conceptual tasks, he always has a senior professional architect doing the majority of the work for him.
3. A masthead pro (usually still playing to a relatively high level) who is put in place purely for marketing purposes and depending on commitment, might only make 3 or 4 visits to the site (one being opening day) and sometimes doesn’t even know which hole is which.

So, there you have it according to the simple world of Ally McIntosh…

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2012, 04:35:51 AM »


  Do developers favor them. Do they have an unfair advantage for projects. How much work do they actually do on their designs.

  Anthony



Sure they favor them... they're a default choice. I wouldn't call it an unfair advantage, it's the advantage of celebrity. But their methods come with disadvantages that can be compared and contrasted. Gil did this by offering to move to the site. That is a huge difference, about 42 times what the McSigs usually provide, and one that really matters.

It's like going down the street in a town you don't know and you want a burger. There's a local shop and a known brand. Most go to the known brand. Unless the parking lot of the local shop is overflowing, you're not likely to drop in. People aren't going to do the homework, spend the time to find out if the local shop is any good. Same thing with golf architects.

There are times someone who understands the business and isn't interested in following the pack (instead prefers to contrast and save a pretty penny in the process while getting a wholly individual project) who does their homework and chooses a craftsman. This is rare.

That said, every project offers an architect to prove himself and rise up through the ranks the hard way. If I had my choice I'd love a Big Box, default architect to have projects next door, so folks could easily compare and contrast.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 04:43:40 AM by Tony Ristola »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2012, 05:10:27 AM »
Be careful what you wish for, Tony!

I believe that the human condition, fallible as it is, believes that lipstick on a pig makes it less of a pig.

I also believe that the human condition encourages us to "illogic-away" the faults of a thing, in order to justify a) the money we paid; b) the time we spent/wasted; c) what we wish it were/what we project it to be.

In words, your fine course A, next to BigBoxMcSig course B, won't receive its due as people will (mis)associate/(mis)atttribute factors and characteristics to the latter, for the reasons and others mentioned above.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2012, 05:54:14 AM »
Be careful what you wish for, Tony!

I believe that the human condition, fallible as it is, believes that lipstick on a pig makes it less of a pig.

I also believe that the human condition encourages us to "illogic-away" the faults of a thing, in order to justify a) the money we paid; b) the time we spent/wasted; c) what we wish it were/what we project it to be.

In words, your fine course A, next to BigBoxMcSig course B, won't receive its due as people will (mis)associate/(mis)atttribute factors and characteristics to the latter, for the reasons and others mentioned above.

Ronald, LOL (about your first point... I understand but have no fear)

I do agree though, especially with your latter point. That can happen, especially if the developer doesn't exploit the advantages at hand.

Unlike the Big Box McSigs, the owner of the crafted product has a story beyond celebrity; which is where their story begins and ends 99% of the time. The competitors have to exploit their advantages as in any business. Even with a better product, they have to educate, they have to tell their story, and keep telling it, it's the only way.




Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2012, 06:42:46 AM »
Golf design will be where it needs to be when people don't know the name of the architect anymore than they know the name of the supt.  The majority of our buildings are that way.  If some RE developer 40 years ago had not decided that it was cheaper to hire a professional golfer to design/market a bad piece of land instead of purchasing a better piece of land with views or water etc then most people would have never hyped golf design the way they have. 
Is there a vertical construction architecture site similar to this one anywhere or do building architects have dork/nerd design sites in that segment?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2012, 10:11:59 AM »
Apparently Ben Crenshaw is chopped liver...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Anthony Gray

Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2012, 03:11:13 PM »
Apparently Ben Crenshaw is chopped liver...

  He does it all himself



Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2012, 03:14:24 PM »
I was listening to ESPN radio the other day and Doug Gottlieb (sp?) said something I thought was interesting.

He said he never understood why you hired salespeople for the job of sales manager, because it takes an entirely different skill set to be successful.

When I heard that I instantly thought about professional golfers being golf course designers. 

Different skill set.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 04:17:38 PM »
This thread makes me wonder, once again, how many head developers of struggling golf communities with less-than-great golf courses are wishing they had a) chosen more wisely and/or b) gave the architect they hired more of the choice land, instead of setting it aside for real estate.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2012, 05:08:24 PM »
Fred Couples did all the work at The Bridges.

 :o
 















 













Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2012, 05:21:32 PM »
So who's the best golfer-turned-architect? Nicklaus? Crenshaw? Ross? None of the above?
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2012, 05:41:44 PM »
Hey, I'll even go with Melvyn on this one.....Old Tom.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sam Morrow

Re: Golfers turned architects
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2012, 12:38:37 PM »
Fred Couples did all the work at The Bridges.

 :o
 















 
















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