[jkinney]

Having played Cypress, Pine Valley and Augusta numerous times, I find Shinny to be a purer and harder fair test of golf than any of them. Mind you I've played Shinny many more times than the aforementioned three, but to me Shiiny is the best among the top four.

What say you all ?

[Sean Leary]

I walked Shinnecock shortly after playing Pine Valley (which I now have a decent number of rounds at), which I consider the best course in the world by a good bit over CPC. Shinnecock is the one course that I have seen that may give PV a run for its money, so no I don't think you are wrong at all...

[Mac Plumart]

Of the courses you just listed, I've only played Shinnecock.  But from my experiences there, I don't think saying it is the very best golf course in the world would be a stretch.  It is beyond exceptional.

[archie_struthers]

 





The first time I played Shinnecock , I thought it was the best day of golf ever.  It was a late summer day the air was moving , and the  golf course was burnt just a bit on the edges. What a fabulous course. That day and the shots I hit remain in my memory many years later. The atmosphere in the clubhouse was also exceptionally pure golf.. The caddies were awesome, and knew the championship history. What a place.

Then I went to Ireland and thought Royal Portrush and RCD were also top shelf , just fabulous. Then I go home to Pine Valley, where I grew up in golf.  Despite knowing it so well, it never disappoints, and the architecture of every hole is exceptional, every single hole.

You can't determine the most beautiful girl in the world , or the best golf course, so ratings be damn, just enjoy them !

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKinney,

I think you can make a case for a number of golf courses being ranked # 1, including Shinnecock Hills.

[jkinney]

Good point, Pat. Perhaps #1 could be rotated. For me it's a mystery that Shinny hasn't ever been on top, and I wish more CGA members would give their opinions in this thread.

[Mac Plumart]

Agreed.  I'd love more discussion on this.

What I'd love to hear elaborated on is an analysis of why Pine Valley is better than Shinnecock.  I thought Shinnecock would be completely ideal for the challenge centric golfer, to borrow Mike Nuzzo's terminology.  But it consistently is ranked below Pine Valley.

Hence my interest in an open and honest assessment of both iconic courses side by side.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKinney,

If my memory serves me right, I believe that Shinnecock Hills was # 1 for a while.

Typically, courses seem to rise toward # 1 as the hosting of an Open looms on the Horizon.

I believe that Pebble Beach experienced the same phenomenon.

There seems to be an ebb and flow in the rankings directly related to the Open.

One of the major advantages Shinnecock enjoys is .......................... the wind.

Pine Valley, Winged Foot, Merion and others don't enjoy the strong breezes that sweep Shinnecock, NGLA, Pebble Beach, CPC and others. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

A few years back, SH made it to #2, but the only courses, according the Golf Digest, to be rated #1 are PV, Pebble and Augusta.

[Kevin Pallier]

Jeff

I ldont quite get what you mean by "harder fair test of golf" ?

I love Shinnecock and think its a mighty fine course though I don't think it has the consistent "highs" of both CPC and Pine Valley. It's splitting hairs I know but it's routing for mine doesn't flow as seemlessly as the others I've mentioned. That said - it is a beautifully presented course and has more width than it seems at first glance and is an absolute joy to play.

It's certainly up there in the mix - that's for sure and is fully deserving of its lofty status alone of the Worlds premiere golf courses.

[Anthony Gray]

Good point, Pat. Perhaps #1 could be rotated. For me it's a mystery that Shinny hasn't ever been on top, and I wish more CGA members would give their opinions in this thread.

  many of us haven't played the courses that you've mentioned. Shinny does look hard as hell for the average golfer. Is it the Murfield of the US?

  Anthony

[Bill Brightly]

The one thing that struck me about Shinny which doesn't have a direct bearing on design, but absolutely has a direct bearing on the experience, is the fact that virtually the entire course can be seen from the clubhouse and there is no real variation in terms of landscape or a feeling that there is some undiscovered beautiful unveiling around the corner from the next tee.

I know we are only splitting hairs here, but the fact that you can see the entire property from the clubhouse gives Shinny a majestic feel. True, the "unveiling" is much more subtle, but it is there nonetheless. Having only played it once, I found the manner in which in which each greensite was presented surprising and awesome.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeremy:

You can make a case for #1 for any course you want.  That's an individual thing, and very subjective.  However, deciding what is the consensus #1 is not a matter for logical argument.  In the end, it's a question of which course arouses the most passion in panelists' minds.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

I'd disagree.

I think there have to be benchmarks, fixed criteria, universal standards by which courses are judged.

I think it has to be an intellectual evaluation, not an emotional exercise.

[jkinney]

I agree with you, Pat. That's what I've tried to do with Shinny. In my initial post, my criteria were a "pure", "hard" and "fair" test of golf. IMO, whatever course best combines those three should be #1. Many of the participants in the '86, '95 and '04 Open Championships talk of Shinny in those terms.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thank you Mac.
I like what Tom wrote.

JK
Shinney sounds like the perfect course for you.
It is ideal to your style or flavor of golf.

To see what Mac and I are talking about read this:
http://www.mnuzzo.com/pdf/GAV5.pdf

Cheers

[Mac Plumart]

My personal oponion is that the concept Mike talks about in that article might explain a large percentage of golf course ranking disagreements.  And the gist of it is, what do you like in a golf course?

If you value a "test of golf" I can not imagine anything much better than Shinnicock.  Perhaps if you value beauty, Cypress is your Shangra-La.

But isnt wind a big factor for golf course design and greatness?  Shinny seems to have the design to highlight that.  While Pine Valley's trees appear that they may choke that off.  Do they?  Does Shinny deserve a discussion as being on par with, or better than, Pine Valley?

[jkinney]

Thank you Mac.
I like what Tom wrote.

JK
Shinney sounds like the perfect course for you.
It is ideal to your style or flavor of golf.

To see what Mac and I are talking about read this:
http://www.mnuzzo.com/pdf/GAV5.pdf

Cheers

Mike - Well written article, but I disagree with your segmentation of greatness into three categories separated from each other. IMO the greatest courses blend all three of your items -- challenge, environment and fun. IMO, given that all three are in place, the defining and tie-breaking criterion for the best-of-the-best should be the greatness of the design and routing of the 18 holes. My view is that Shinny takes that segment hands down.

[archie_struthers]

  


Back to my point, and others rankings. . There is no quantitative way to say one golf course is the best. However, ,I think  Pine Valley wins most polls year after year is the unbelievable quality of every hole on the golf course.  There are no chinks in the armor (lol) !   

The first day we played Portrush the fifth hole was so pure ! not just the tee shot and  or the nasty bump and run over the bump in the fairway . The walk to the fairway after cutting the corner was so cool , Thought sure a a leprecaun was going to join me on my walk down the hill. Calamity was awesome , and the whole place just reeked of golf. Then we went to Royal County Down and the front nine was otherworldly, even better???


Maybe maybe not...as many have proffered , the very best courses are virtually unrankable, though I will say none are better than my home town favorite Pine Valley!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

One of PV's great assets is the lack of repetition.

There's very little in the way similarity amongst any and all 18 holes.
# 1 and # 6 dogleg right and that's about the only similarity in the holes.

Some feel that # 4 and # 8 and # 1 and # 15 at SH have similarities.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think any of the top 4 or 5 courses can be a #1. It is a subjective analysis anyway.  Shinny is one of them.

[Jack Davis]

I agree. Any course in the top 5-10 is #1 to a lot of people. Working at Shinnecock I am of course biased having played the course so many times in various conditions. IMO Shinnecock has the potential to be #1 at any time. I think compared to Cypress, PV, or ANGC it stands it own, hole by hole. Every time I play it is a treat. Playing Cypress last year was amazing but I think Shinnecock is a better test to the champion golfer, without being 7600 yards and over the top. The best courses in the country can challenge anyone at 6500 - 7000 yards and be right in front of you. Shinnecock shows you which shot to hit and then begs you to hit it. Don't pull it off? Watch out!!!

[jkinney]

I agree. Any course in the top 5-10 is #1 to a lot of people. Working at Shinnecock I am of course biased having played the course so many times in various conditions. IMO Shinnecock has the potential to be #1 at any time. I think compared to Cypress, PV, or ANGC it stands it own, hole by hole. Every time I play it is a treat. Playing Cypress last year was amazing but I think Shinnecock is a better test to the champion golfer, without being 7600 yards and over the top. The best courses in the country can challenge anyone at 6500 - 7000 yards and be right in front of you. Shinnecock shows you which shot to hit and then begs you to hit it. Don't pull it off? Watch out!!!

And, Jack, you get to play the ever present trade wind from every angle. Such a treat it is.

[Sebonac]

Shinny is great as an overall test.  But I think if you go hole-by-hole....it does not stand up.  For instance...Shinny's Redan is not a great hole.  It is just hard.

[Jim Eder]

Shinnecock, Pine Valley, Cypress Point and maybe a few others are like children to me.  I love them all and have a hard time putting one ahead of another.

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