[Mike_Young]

Mike,
Any 'free' stuff is still being invoiced, it doesn't matter if it's on a completely different bill, it still crosses the bookeeper's desk.
The rest of the shenanigans you mention are the province of thieves.

You know why vendors do this, it's to promote their product. The program is as well known to the clubs that must sign off on it as it is to the 'independent' shop owner. How you arrive at your conclusion is beyond me, especially when participation in the program is only allowed if everyone in authority at a club agrees to it.

You think it looks improper, the participants and clubs they work for do not. It boils down to that.

Jim,
The club manager may be familiar with it but most board members have no clue it exist.   

[Bill_McBride]

Mike,
Any 'free' stuff is still being invoiced, it doesn't matter if it's on a completely different bill, it still crosses the bookeeper's desk.
The rest of the shenanigans you mention are the province of thieves.

You know why vendors do this, it's to promote their product. The program is as well known to the clubs that must sign off on it as it is to the 'independent' shop owner. How you arrive at your conclusion is beyond me, especially when participation in the program is only allowed if everyone in authority at a club agrees to it.

You think it looks improper, the participants and clubs they work for do not. It boils down to that.

Jim,
The club manager may be familiar with it but most board members have no clue it exist.   

I have been a member of four private clubs over the past 35 years and had no idea a program like this existed, even during my three years as a board member and golf chair.   

Our long time pro has retired on disability and SS because of kidney disease.   The club made no provisions for a retirement plan.  A program like Mike describes would have been a bonus for us.   

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Any 'free' stuff is still being invoiced, it doesn't matter if it's on a completely different bill, it still crosses the bookeeper's desk.
The rest of the shenanigans you mention are the province of thieves.

You know why vendors do this, it's to promote their product. The program is as well known to the clubs that must sign off on it as it is to the 'independent' shop owner. How you arrive at your conclusion is beyond me, especially when participation in the program is only allowed if everyone in authority at a club agrees to it.

You think it looks improper, the participants and clubs they work for do not. It boils down to that.

Jim,
The club manager may be familiar with it but most board members have no clue it exist.  

Mike,
You have no sampling of data that shows most board members are unaware of the program and I have no data that says most board members are. On the other hand, programs like this have been 'on the market' for a couple of decades, they aren't secret.

Therefore, I think this is more likely to be your badge than mine:
 
 
 

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
Any 'free' stuff is still being invoiced, it doesn't matter if it's on a completely different bill, it still crosses the bookeeper's desk.
The rest of the shenanigans you mention are the province of thieves.

You know why vendors do this, it's to promote their product. The program is as well known to the clubs that must sign off on it as it is to the 'independent' shop owner. How you arrive at your conclusion is beyond me, especially when participation in the program is only allowed if everyone in authority at a club agrees to it.

You think it looks improper, the participants and clubs they work for do not. It boils down to that.

Jim,
The club manager may be familiar with it but most board members have no clue it exist.  

Mike,
You have no sampling of data that shows most board members are unaware of the program and I have no data that says most board members are. On the other hand, programs like this have been 'on the market' for a couple of decades, they aren't secret.

Therefore, I think this is more likely to be your badge than mine:
 
 
 

Jim,
I like that.
Well rain is gone..I'm done agitating for a while...going to play for a few days......cheers...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike
Have fun.   

[Mike_Young]

Will do.  Thx

[Sean_A]

Mike

I don't know, but it seems to me that this sort of retirement plan could be advertised quite well by the club in such a way that many members may wish to purchase from the pro (assuming he is well liked and trusted) BECAUSE of the retirement "kickback".  While I am not the biggest fan of golf pros, when I do identify one who is good I would have no problem rewarding him first by purchasing from his shop and second knowing that some of the mark-up price is going to a retirement fund.  Isn't this a perfect example of a perk (so long as everybody is fully aware) which make sense?  

To the question - you lot in the business - try as you might - can't ruin the game of golf because the game is about golfers - not those in the business.

Ciao

[Ben Sims]

There have been 57 posts and all that has been argued about is the Golf Retirement Plus program? I think there are a few more issues with the golf business as it relates to golf itself than a retirement plan!  That said, it would be interesting to see if John Deere or Toro are putting 6% into GCSAA guys retirement accounts like the equipment companies and their PGA counterparts.

I met a lot of interesting and genuine people in my first Golf Industry show this week.  By and large, I think the golf business has some incredibly high quality products and are capable of delivering results with regards to turf, construction, and equipment.  Not once did I walk away from a booth or showcase thinking that there was a ridiculous premise at work.  But these high quality products produce results at a high cost.  A very high cost.  And in my opinion, when the business starts "out-punting its coverage," then financial issues will persist.  

I found myself walking around the show for a couple days saying, "Wow!  But do we need this?"  Many products were directed at owners and managers trying to reduce costs.  But it's tough to justify a 47K fairway mower because it burns a bit less fuel and is lighter than your previous model.  Lots of really nice and new fungicides.  But I couldn't find one that was needed to be applied at any rates less than we use now.  One quote I heard this week.  "If your green isn't performing the way you want it to from an agronomic standpoint, it's time to renovate"  I didn't hear any information in concert with that statement on how to rescue a distressed green.  It goes on and on. 

I wish there was a way to shift golfers maintenance expectations and go back to a simpler construction and/or maintenance model.  Cost per round will only climb if the paradigm at this years' show doesn't shift.  From all indications at the show this year, the golf business is set to continue to provide high quality/high cost.  Not good for Joe Golfer IMHO.

[Chris DeNigris]

Sean-How does golf exist without the "business" of golf?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Chris

How does golf exist without the "business" of golf?  Well it survived for nearly 6 Centuries without the pressure of "business", until we had a Governing Body 'who know not what they do' for the past 100 years.

The answer nearly always reverts back to those who are in charge who seem more than willing to acquiesce to those with money. For some reason I keep thinking of golf being sold for '30 pieces of silver' and more regrettably the majority of players who consider it is perfectly acceptable to reduce ones score by buying the latest equipment.

Perhaps in the end we should look into our own hearts and ask why are we so shallow, because that is the ultimate reason for growth of the golfing business. Our real commitment to the Royal & Ancient Game of Golf is faltering, allowing technology to usurp skill while we excuse it on the basis that its evolution - sorry the real word is cheating, worst still we are cheating ourselves and in the process destroying the game (and its once great designs and courses) we love. The biggest sin of all is that we all know it but are not willing to go anything to stop it.

Golf, a game once so pure of heart it touched the soul of Man.


 


 

[Sean_A]

Sean-How does golf exist without the "business" of golf?

Chris

See Ben's post.  Golf can only reasonably support so many on its back.  I think a very large percentage of those in golf related businesses are not only unnecessary, but potentially very harmful to the business side of golf as a whole and the game.  I had hoped these past 4 years of economic hard times would have tempered the desire to continue the mad consumer side of golf, but I am not sure such a thing can be accomplished when society as a whole is so geared into consumerism - which in many ways is code for wasteful behaviour.  

Ciao  

[Joe Byrnes]

What would you call it if your stock broker was working on such incentives?

Mike you are spot on there! It's called illegal. I have no problem with the program, but full disclosure should be the rule a good business model uses, and I'm sure that not all pro's are fully disclosing commissions they might be receiving when making recommedations.

If it's disclosed, no problem.

JB

[jeffwarne]

What would you call it if your stock broker was working on such incentives?

Mike you are spot on there! It's called illegal. I have no problem with the program, but full disclosure should be the rule a good business model uses, and I'm sure that not all pro's are fully disclosing commissions they might be receiving when making recommedations.

If it's disclosed, no problem.

JB

Welcome to the treehouse JB ......

Well we finally figured out what ails the golf business.
"Illegal" pros making too much money.
Who knew?

It couldn't possibly be overbuilding, building courses in the middle of nowhere, using crappy spread out cartball courses to sell homes, borrowing heavily for clubhouse expansions,lockerroom expansions,dining room etc.,renovating courses every 10 years, running greens at 13, hand raking bunkers, walk mowing fairways,valet parking car washes, keeping up with the Jones cause they're doing it etc........
Fortunately for many club Board members they inherited their money (or perhaps they make "illegal" commissions), because if they ran their businesses the way many run their clubs, they'd be broke and have no money for golf.

C;mon guys, if we want to discuss golf surviving the "business" of golf, let's dig deeper than the golf pro possibly receiving retirement money from Taylormade (who found the niche because they realized most clubs don't provide retirement plans for their pros)
For God's sake the owners(or club officers) of the course have to sign the Retirement + paperwork unless the pro owns the shop, and if he owns the shop,he's not only making a ret + commission, he's(perhaps) making a profit(whie taking the risk he may eat it) or have we become so Obamaized that that's illegal too.

anyone who thinks a pro's getting rich selling a driver for $299 that he bought for $239(and is available at Nevada Bob's for $249) is mistaken.
If he sells 10 he breaks even after eating the two left handed one's he had to buy for the  Club president who changed his mind.

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