[Michael George]

Wolf Creek in Mesquite.

10-17 are all above average holes, with 12-17 as very good IMO. 18 is definitely a let down.

Alex:

I thought about Wolf Creek, but there are so many disappointing holes stuck between great holes that I thought 18 was just par for the course. 1-2 good holes, 3-4 not so good, 5-6 good holes, 7 not so good, 8 good hole, 9 not so good, 10-12 good holes, 13 not so good, 14 good, 15 not so good, 16-17 good (even though 17 should be a par 4) and 18 not so good.  Just the roller coaster that is Wolf Creek.  Listen, I enjoyed it because it is one of the most scenic golf courses in the world, but very inconsistent.

BTW - 15 literally looks like the built a 17 hole golf course and had to stick a par 3 in somewhere.

[Andy Troeger]

Michael,
Interesting comments regarding Wolf Creek. I agree with your general principle that playing the course is a bit like a roller coaster, but I don't necessarily agree that holes 7 and 15 are poor. I like #7 as a little tempting par four that's so heavily guarded that the layup is without question the prudent play for most. Its not the easiest layup and pitch hole, though. Its one of my favorites. I like #15's placement because it gives you a break from getting beat over the head--especially after #14. The fun thing about the course is the roller coaster aspect though.

I do think the finishing holes on both nines are pretty much duds however. They get you back to the clubhouse, but there's not much going on with either of them. I can understand having holes like that in the middle of the course for balance/flow purposes, but its a bit of a letdown to finish on one.

[Andy Troeger]

Ironically, on three of my five favorite courses, the 18th can be seen as being "lesser" than most of the rest of the course (Cypress Point, Bandon Trails, and Rock Creek), so perhaps having a strong finisher isn't high on my priority list.

I'm not a big fan of #18 at Whistling Straits, although I think its better now from TV than it was originally. The comments about how Bandon Dunes' #18 could be better make sense to me, although I don't hate the current hole. I don't think #18 at Black Mesa is one of the better holes on the course--its basically a 3-iron/hybrid and a wedge most of the time, but its got some character. #18 at MPCC Shore is usually mentioned on threads like this one. There are a whole slew of other uphill par four finishers that aren't awful but come across as a bit redundant--Arcadia Bluffs as mentioned is another of those.

Paa-Ko Ridge's #18 is my least favorite on the course because I find the tee shot very awkward, plus if you hit what seems like the desired tee shot with a draw to the end of the first fairway, there's this little tree that often gets in the way that's totally unnecessary.

[Michael George]

Andy:

I think the approach on #7 is one of the most exciting shots on the course.  However, I don't like the hole as there is no incentive to go for the green off the tee.  There is no "small" clear path between the tee and the green.  If the gulley/pond in front of the green had a run up of some sort, I think it would be a better hole.  Also, the design of the fairway gives you no incentive to get as close to the gulley/pond on your lay up drive (as the closer you get, the harder your 2nd shot).  So the hole became for me (off the back tees), a 7 iron off the tee and a pitching wedge to the green.  As much as it hurts me to say (as I love short par 4's), I think the only way to fix the hole is push the tee back and make it a normal length par 4.

We will agree to disagree on #15.  A receptive green with a 56 degree sand wedge from the back tees on a side of a hill.  I like short par 3's, but the green has to be more severe than that one.  I think that site was a perfect place for a short par 3 downhill with an infinity back to the green with a false back (for those that have played #14 at Brookside, the it has a false back infinity green that is really cool).

That being said, #8, #12 and #14 are really great holes that I could play time and again.

[Mark Steffey]

i wish Sunnehanna had a stronger 18th hole.  many years ago the addition of a parking lot caused the movement of the original green.  now we have a short(er) finishing hole and to protect it there are pines on each side tightening the fairway - something that is out of place with the rest of the layout.

[Doug Wright]

Vista Verde in Scottsdale has a lot to recommend it but the 18th there is probably the worst hole on the course. It's awkwardly short with a pond that's just really really out of place (you can say the same about most ponds on courses in Arizona, but this one is especially jarring).

Agree--the 18th at Talking Stick North is similar. Too bad as I like TSN otherwise.

Are you think of 18 on Talking Stick South? 18 on the North has a prertty ugly view of the parking lot but is otherwise a fine hole and fitting with the course, I think.

As for the South ... I tend to give it a pass. That's intended to be a "parkland" style layout and there are several holes out there with water. It is an awkwardly short hole and doesn't really seem a fiiting 18th, however.

Obviously, there are a ton of courses in Arizona that finish with the 18th next to a pond, and it's almost always especially out of place. Off the top of my head, the list would include: both Grayhawk courses, Eagle Mountain, Raven SM, Raven Verrado, both Boulders courses, WeKoPa Cholla, and many many others. I know the "pond on 18" is a cliche everywhere, but it's always especially jarring on a desert course, and all the more so if the previous holes haven't featured water.

One other is Southern Dunes. I think the pond is totally out of place on that course (though it creates interesting driving options on 10), and yet I still think that 18th hole is OK. It still feels like the rest of the holes out there, overall. It would just be better without the water.

Correct, Talking Stick South. The 18th on TSN is a decent finisher.

[Greg Tallman]

18 at Muirfeild Village
18 at May River
18 at World Woods Pine Barrens
18 at Long Cove
18 at Old White

I have another that I just discussed at length with GCA favorite former contributor but I will wait for another to offer it up first.

Greg - I don't see 18 at May River as disappointing. It's a par five finisher with options. What gives?

Same hole can be seen a thousand times over in the south. Lake left off the tee, lake right on the second... been there done that and way out of character for the rest of the course.

The iconic tree that is 50 yards left/short of the green could have been put to better use.

With apologies to my friends Jim and Kurt... that hole is a stinker on an otherwise wonderful course.

Very disappointing finisher.

[Tyler Ince]

I am with Bill on Torrey Pines.  The dank water pond reminded me of a city course I grew up on and was not a "US Open" type finish I expected.  Maybe it was just the condition and smell of the water that did it for me!

Also Turnberry - just didn't like the aesthetics of the finish.

[Michael Whitaker]

18 at Muirfeild Village
18 at May River
18 at World Woods Pine Barrens
18 at Long Cove
18 at Old White

I have another that I just discussed at length with GCA favorite former contributor but I will wait for another to offer it up first.

Greg - I don't see 18 at May River as disappointing. It's a par five finisher with options. What gives?

Same hole can be seen a thousand times over in the south. Lake left off the tee, lake right on the second... been there done that and way out of character for the rest of the course.

The iconic tree that is 50 yards left/short of the green could have been put to better use.

With apologies to my friends Jim and Kurt... that hole is a stinker on an otherwise wonderful course.

Very disappointing finisher.

Hmm... seems a bit harsh.

[Greg Tallman]

18 at Muirfeild Village
18 at May River
18 at World Woods Pine Barrens
18 at Long Cove
18 at Old White

I have another that I just discussed at length with GCA favorite former contributor but I will wait for another to offer it up first.

Greg - I don't see 18 at May River as disappointing. It's a par five finisher with options. What gives?

Same hole can be seen a thousand times over in the south. Lake left off the tee, lake right on the second... been there done that and way out of character for the rest of the course.

The iconic tree that is 50 yards left/short of the green could have been put to better use.

With apologies to my friends Jim and Kurt... that hole is a stinker on an otherwise wonderful course.

Very disappointing finisher.

Hmm... seems a bit harsh.

just one guy's opinion and the guys who did the course are good friends.

[Michael George]

Re: Yale's finisher.  Here is Ran's description of the hole in his write-up:

Eighteenthhole, 620 yards, Home; Though controversial, this sprawlingthree shotter isthe perfectly impossible ending for this innovative design. It is difficult to describe other than to say the hole plays over and around a mountain. For the past several decades, the alternate lower right path was effectively not an option as tree growth had narrowed the right fairway to under fifteen yards in width. According to Ramsey, the right fairway was ”…was8-10 yards wide from the hill to the tree in 2003. Now it is 21 yards of fairway and 8-10 yards of rough to the tree line. We continue toincrementally recapture more fairway from the rough as we improve irrigation and drainage.Hopefully, we can get to 25-30 yards of fairway and continue to make it a really viable option.’ This courserichly deserves a unique ending and this hole delivers like few Home holes. Indeed, the author putsit forward as the best Long hole that either Raynor or Macdonald built due to its originality as well as its optional playing routes (i.e. for the same reasons that the fourteenth at the Old Course at St. Andrews isa standout).

I look forward to playing it.  Sounds like the type of hole that I would love.

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