Is there a connection?

[Jackson C]

OK, this is my first topic and it stems from an observation Tom Doak made in a related thread (which I can't find now but has been stuck in my mind!).

So what is the connection, and is there anything to it?  (Assume for argument sake these are excellent to great courses,)

Herbert Fowler -- Walton Health
Alister MacKenzie -- Alwoody
Harry Colt -- Swinley Forrest
George Crump -- Pine Valley
Hugh Wilson -- Merion
Donald Ross -- Pinehurst #2

and for some modern architects,

Mike Strantz -- Caledonia
David Kidd -- Bandon Dunes
Mike Devries -- Kingsley

Yes, no?  Maybe so?  Coincidence?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Jackson,

I don't understand the question    What connection/coincidence?

[Ally Mcintosh]

I'd guess it was the first course by each architect is one of their best is what you're getting at... if a couple didn't add up such as Colt at Swinley was quite late, wasn't it?

[Scott Warren]

Their first course? Long-term dedication? There seems to be examples of both that don't fit in that list of courses and architects. What connection are you suggesting?

[Jackson C]

I think you are close ... wish I had Tom's quote as I hate to paraphrase him.

One big omission from the list above:

Kyle Phillips -- Kingsbarns


Ally,
 I read that Swinley was Colt's first major lead project.  It is what he created after he joined Sunningdale and contributed to Sunningdale old.  He found Swinley right next to Sunningdale.

[Bill_McBride]

You'd have to include Mr. Fownes of Oakmont in that list.

[Adam Lawrence]

Swinley was 1909, which was early in Colt's career, but by no means his first course. Obviously there's the work he did at Rye right at the beginning, but Stoke Poges was pretty much contemporaneous, and he was doing a lot of additional design work at that time too.

You can't really argue that Kingsbarns was Kyle's first course either - he had been a lead architect for RTJ2 for many years.

[Tom_Doak]

Jackson:

I can't remember which thread it was in, either, but my quote was to the effect that many such courses turned out so well because the architect was entirely focused on them, and not worried one bit about what job he was going to do next.

That doesn't always mean it has to be the architect's first course.  In my own career, you could say that about High Pointe, but you could also say it about Pacific Dunes.  And it was true of Pete Dye a lot of the time when he was building the projects for which he is famous.

[Scott Sander]

Pete Dye and Crooked Stick...

Bill Diddel and Woodland...

Jim Engh at Black Rock...


If it's that kind of connection, then I suppose it depends entirely on whether one is a good tinkerer or a bad one.  Some would say, for instance, that Mr. Dye would have been better to leave his home course largely alone after a certain point in time.  On the other hand, Mr. Diddel's reluctance to make significant evolutionary changes to his home course might well be the primary reason that it's now plowed under.

...or maybe I have the wrong connection.

(Edit:  'spose my guess is kinda moot given the post preceding it.  I type too sloooowlly.)

[Joe Bausch]

Ab Smith --  Karakung

[Peter Pallotta]

Jackson, Tom - I think Tom's comment was made on the 'eastern thought' thread that quoted Chuang Tzu's story of the master craftsman Ch'ing, who put all thoughts of the "Prince or Court" and of "reward and gain" out of his mind before he began work.   Tom suggested that this might be an explanation for the great first course phenomenon you outline, Jackson - i.e. that an architect working on his first course cares only about making it the very best course he can, and not about his next job or next client (prince or court). I think it is not a co-incidence that when we can focus on our highest Ideals (either because we're saints or because we're too dumb and inexperienced to know better), the work comes out best.

Peter

[Adam Lawrence]

Jackson:

I can't remember which thread it was in, either, but my quote was to the effect that many such courses turned out so well because the architect was entirely focused on them, and not worried one bit about what job he was going to do next.

You certainly couldn't say that about Colt at Swinley! Per. 'The Architects of Golf', here's a brief list of the courses Colt would have been working on around the same time:

Denham GC (1910)
Edgbaston GC (1909)
Kingsthorpe GC (1908)
Ladbroke Park (1910)
Leamington and County GC (1909)
Moor Park (1911)
Northamptonshire County (1910)
Ringway GC (1909)
Sandy Lodge (1910)
Stoke Poges (1909)
Tyneside GC (1910)
Ulverston GC (1910)

Plus a pile of renovations to older courses. I know C&W isn't always 100 per cent reliable, but that's a _lot_ of work going on at the same time!

[Michael George]

There is a famous quote that I cannot recall who said it, but it explaned how great courses could be built by "1 time" architects like Wilson, Crump and Fownes (although history shows that each of these men received help from professional architects) - saying that the art of golf course design requires great creativity which allows these 1 time architects to exhibit and which causes many early courses from professional architects to be so great.  Anyone else recall who said something like this?  

[Scott Warren]

I think it's easy in hindsight to take a bunch of great courses and try to shoehorn some kind of significance or commonality between them.

I'm not surprised that many architects' first (or first major) course ends up being their best or among their best. There has to be great freedom in not having anything to protect nor live up to and not feeling the weight of expectation. Especially in the Golden Age when an amateur/beginner could get their hands on a site like National, Alwoodley, Walton Heath or Swinley Forest.

[Mike_Trenham]

Was Haig Point Rees Jones first solo design or was it good because he could not get off the island easily?

[Jackson C]

Thanks Tom for the reply and insight -- good thing I didn't try to paraphrase you; I would not have done justice.

Peter, thanks for reminding me where Tom's original thought came from -- your great thread and quote.  I shared your quote with friends and they all loved it.

Scott, I think you are right.  This is not the strongest of correlaters, but the exercise yields some interesting if not random observations.

When I think about it some of the necessary ingredients for high level success, they include:

skill, ability, motivation, inspiration, and opportunity

I would think the majority of outstanding architects did not have the opportunity (great piece of land combined with great owner/entrepreneur) on their first solo endeavor.
Also many outstanding architects did not have the requisite skill at the time of their first solo endeavor -- compare to a Phillips, Devries and Stranz who learned the trade for years as the apprentice to a master(s) before their first solo.
Lastly, to Scott's point, some of the examples I listed are of architects that may have received considerable secondary support from masters/those would prove to be masters -- see Crump/Colt, Wilson/Flynn.  By extension was Maxwell's first solo after Crystal Downs (supporting MacKenzie) Prairie Dunes?

[Tom_Doak]

Thanks Tom for the reply and insight -- good thing I didn't try to paraphrase you; I would not have done justice.

Peter, thanks for reminding me where Tom's original thought came from -- your great thread and quote.  I shared your quote with friends and they all loved it.

Scott, I think you are right.  This is not the strongest of correlaters, but the exercise yields some interesting if not random observations.

When I think about it some of the necessary ingredients for high level success, they include:

skill, ability, motivation, inspiration, and opportunity

I would think the majority of outstanding architects did not have the opportunity (great piece of land combined with great owner/entrepreneur) on their first solo endeavor.
Also many outstanding architects did not have the requisite skill at the time of their first solo endeavor -- compare to a Phillips, Devries and Stranz who learned the trade for years as the apprentice to a master(s) before their first solo.
Lastly, to Scott's point, some of the examples I listed are of architects that may have received considerable secondary support from masters/those would prove to be masters -- see Crump/Colt, Wilson/Flynn.  By extension was Maxwell's first solo after Crystal Downs (supporting MacKenzie) Prairie Dunes?

Jackson:

Perry Maxwell had built some excellent courses before he worked with MacKenzie, including Old Town Club.  I'm not sure whether Prairie Dunes was his first project after Crystal Downs -- hopefully not as there was a 2-3 year gap in between them.

[Michael Whitaker]

Was Haig Point Rees Jones first solo design or was it good because he could not get off the island easily?

I think his first was Arcadian Shores in Myrtle Beach.
 

[Michael Whitaker]

Tom Fazio's first solo design was Wild Dunes... which was a truly great course and inspiring before Hurricane Hugo and over-development.

[Mike_Trenham]

Tom Fazio's first solo design was Wild Dunes... which was a truly great course and inspiring before Hurricane Hugo and over-development.

I think Stranz was on that crew.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Fazio's first solo design was Wild Dunes... which was a truly great course and inspiring before Hurricane Hugo and over-development.

I think Stranz was on that crew.

Mike Trenham:

I believe that's correct.  But, you shouldn't confuse cause and effect.

[Jackson C]

Michael and Mike,

It is a coincidence that I have plans to play Wild Dunes next month -- did not know it was Fazio's first.
How much of it is Strantz and how much of it is Fazio?
Either way, looks like a it will be a treat just based on history.

Jackson