[Tom_Doak]

I hope the GCA's have a gentlemen's wager (cherry wine anyone?) on which course gets rated higher by the various rags...

Jud:

I might make that wager with some other golf course architects, but I wouldn't think of suggesting it to Bill Coore ... and not just because I would be afraid of losing to him!  Some of the guys who work with us may have strong rooting interests [I'm talking to you, Jimbo!], but I can honestly say that it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if the Red course comes in higher than the Blue, and I really don't think it will bother Bill in the slightest if it's the other way around.  We just want BOTH courses to be ranked highly as that was the client's goal coming in.

[Tom_Doak]

Barnbougle?  Never played either, but hear great things.

If it added 2 more courses, couldn't it be better than Bandon?  You can certainly argue that Banbougle Dunes and Lost Farms are better than Bandon's best, can't you?

I think you might be able to argue that the two courses at Barnbougle are AS GOOD AS the two best courses in Bandon ... whichever they are ... but I don't think you would have much luck making a strong case that the two courses at Barnbougle are BETTER than Bandon's best.  Start a thread if you want, but your best chance of victory is if only the Aussies vote.

Then, it is another leap to assume that anyone would build a third and fourth course at Barnbougle that are as good as the third and fourth courses in Bandon.  I can tell you from experience that building something better is not easily done.

[Bill Gayne]

What's interesting to me for resorts is the renovation work that has been done at Sea Island, Pinehurst, Cascades, and Greenbrier. All golden age resort courses that return to many of the original design principles.

[Tom_Doak]

Does it help this discussion to list the top notch golf resorts that are out there?  So far we have:

Streamsong (when finished)
Bandon
Barnbougle
Kohler
Cabot Links
Pinehurst (albeit not a recent addition)

What criteria are the besides from being accessible to the public?  Do you need to have more than one course?

Do places like Kiawah qualify, even though the courses are spread out around the island?

Sven:

GOLF Magazine has nine Platinum resorts, and you managed to name only four of them.  You left off:

The Broadmoor  [dare I say, overrated?]
Hualalei
Manele Bay
Pebble Beach
Sea Island

If you want to make it international, you should probably add Gleneagles and Kawana, anyway.

[Ted Cahill]

Well lets hope it enjoys success. I think it is silly or worse to declare anything something big in this market. Bandon became what it is not just because of the golf courses. Mike Kaiser kept his vision in place when others including his operations company would have taken a different approach. It is a combination of great golf courses and an incredibly well run operation that plays to the desires of golfers.

Since Streamsong will be managed by the same operations company as Bandon (Kemper Sports), with courses from the same architects- this will be an interesting science experiment- we will get to see the direction of a resort with great courses, without Mike Keiser's guiding hand.  I know there are a number of other variables that don't make this an apples to apples comparison- but it's as close to a comparison (as far as operations, vison, architects) that we can get in the United States.  I don't expect Streamsong to have the je ne sais quoi of Bandon.  The courses, golf will be excellent- TD's modesty (don't judge til they open....) aside.  But the resort feel may very well be standard upscale, corporate Florida (i.e. Sawgrass)  Once again, not my preference- but I will not fault Streamsong if this is the case.  I have a strange attraction to the hot, humid Florida climate and I can't wait to be able to match that with great minimilast golf.  

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:

GOLF Magazine has nine Platinum resorts, and you managed to name only four of them.  You left off:

The Broadmoor  [dare I say, overrated?]
Hualalei
Manele Bay
Pebble Beach
Sea Island

If you want to make it international, you should probably add Gleneagles and Kawana, anyway.

Okay, so now we have, so far:

Streamsong (when finished)
Bandon
Barnbougle
Kohler
Cabot Links
Pinehurst (albeit not a recent addition)
The Broadmoor  [dare TD says, overrated?]
Hualalei
Manele Bay
The Boulders
The Greenbrier
Pebble Beach
Sea Island
Kiawah
Gleneagles
Kawana

I'll add in French Lick just to be inclusive.  What's the level below Platinum for the GM list?

Adding this GD list to round out the entrants:  http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2011-11/75-best-golf-resorts-in-us?currentPage=3

[Tom_Doak]

Well lets hope it enjoys success. I think it is silly or worse to declare anything something big in this market. Bandon became what it is not just because of the golf courses. Mike Kaiser kept his vision in place when others including his operations company would have taken a different approach. It is a combination of great golf courses and an incredibly well run operation that plays to the desires of golfers.

Since Streamsong will be managed by the same operations company as Bandon (Kemper Sports), with courses from the same architects- this will be an interesting science experiment- we will get to see the direction of a resort with great courses, without Mike Keiser's guiding hand.  I know there are a number of other variables that don't make this an apples to apples comparison- but it's as close to a comparison (as far as operations, vison, architects) that we can get in the United States.  I don't expect Streamsong to have the je ne sais quoi of Bandon.  The courses, golf will be excellent- TD's modesty (don't judge til they open....) aside.  But the resort feel may very well be standard upscale, corporate Florida (i.e. Sawgrass)  Once again, not my preference- but I will not fault Streamsong if this is the case.  I have a strange attraction to the hot, humid Florida climate and I can't wait to be able to match that with great minimilast golf.  

Ted:

I am not sure if you will really be getting a comparison of with vs. without Mike Keiser.  You are more likely to be getting a comparison of great golf inland vs. great golf oceanfront.  And I've always thought that the ocean was a big part of the success of EVERYTHING in Bandon.

But, then again, oceanfront was part of Mr. Keiser's business model.  And unfortunately, it couldn't be a part of Mosaic's business model, because no one will let them mine near the ocean.

[Jud_T]

I'm not convinced that the resort will be standard Florida convention stuff.  The evidence we have thus far is 1) they've specifically gone out and hired two of the hottest GCA hands and 2) the rendering of the lodge looks to be pretty good architecture at first blush.  So somebody at Mosaic clearly has a clue, as well as a few mining bucks to invest in the venture.  I'd expect that to extend to food, lodging, etc.

[Simon Holt]

As a non-American its hard for me to comment on resort golf but the Blue course is certainly the most interesting I played in a month of Florida golf this past Jan/Feb.  (EDIT: the reason being it is absolutely not Florida golf!)

I think it has every chance to be the most successful since Bandon as there seems to be a good number of winter golfers in the Tampa, Orlando and Naples area which isn't too far to drive for golf of that quality.  

It really opened my eyes.  All I knew at the time was that it was really fun and nothing like anything I have played anywhere- let alone Florida!  Now I have time to digest my whole trip it really was the standout experience for the golf, let alone the great company.

I guess you have to be non-american to like the Blue Course.   I still love playing it, in spite of the various improvements over the past 12 years.

Gary- you've lost me.  I can only assume you thought I was talking about the Blue course somewhere other than Streamsong.  Not sure what was at Streamsong 12 years ago but it wasn't a golf course!

[Tom_Doak]

I think he thought you were talking about Doral !

It never occurred to me the "The Blue Course" might already mean something else to people in Florida.  Perhaps Mr. Trump will have to re-name his new place.  Now, THAT'S who I should wager on comparative rankings.

[Keith OHalloran]

Is it possible that Steamsong can break the world hyperbole record?

[Simon Holt]

Tom- an interesting wager is whether he renames his new course?  It might not be the Blue Monster for much longer.

[Ronald Montesano]

Is there a stream? Is there a song?

I think we're getting away from the initial notion here. Reread the subject line, amigos:

"Most important"

"Since"

"Bandon"

If it's not post-1999, it doesn't count!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom this wil be a good science experiment.  I look forward to the evidence starting to flow in.

[Will MacEwen]

I think that Pinehurst post reno may be most important - I recall Mike Benham spearheading some sort of "Greenside Chats" to educate the masses on firm and fast, natural waste areas, etc.

[Jim Nugent]

What is the rest of the land like at Barnbougle?  Good/great terrain for one or two other top-notch courses? 

[Scott Warren]

Jim, there is some wonderful land there, not just coastal either. The tip seems to be that course #3 will be Ogilvy Clayton and may very well be inland.

Barnbougle is remarkable for the remoteness of the place, but with a much smaller population within 90mins flight (maybe 12mil?) and only 24mil in all of Australia and NZ. Also for the extremely commendable fact that it has remained affordable ($130 all day golf year-round, ~$50 a night for a quad-share bed). It really is a wonderful place.

3 days/2 nights golf, bed, food/grog, flight from Sydney and rental car from Launceston can be done for under $1000.

2 days/1 night for under $700.

Even less from Melbourne.

For courses ranked 41 and 82 in the world.

[Kyle Henderson]

Is it possible that Steamsong can break the world hyperbole record?

I like to tell my friends that I am the world's greatest user of hyperbole, only because that statement would not be hyperbole if it was uttered by Trump.

[Kevin Pallier]

Its hard to go past Barnbougle. Out of the way destination golf similar in more ways than one to the Bandon model.

A surprise for mine has been Mission Hills development - which started a few years before Bandon. Multiple courses yet none of any significant  world wide acclaim ?

[Jim Nugent]

Is it possible that Steamsong can break the world hyperbole record?

I think the question is, will Streamsong live up to the hyperbole?  With Doak and C&C near/at the top of their game... with such a dynamite site... bet it does. 

[Mike_Trenham]

Would some of the resorts in China be just as important, surprised nothing has made the list, what about Mexico

[Scott Weersing]

While we (those who follow GCA) are excited about Streamsong, I am doubt most other golfers know who is Tom Doak and Coore and Crenshaw.

I think Streamsong will be attractive to golfers who want nothing but golf and are willing to travel. It does not look like there will be much local play based on its location so Kemper will have to market to golfers in the NE who want just great golf and not all the things of a resort. Will Streamsong add all of things to be attractive to corporate golfers (convention center, spa, tennis courts, pool, Butch Harmon golf academy, etc.) or just be about great golf like Bandon?

Can it become the Bandon Dunes of Florida? I think it could fill a missing niche or it could just become one of the hundred resort courses in Florida like Doral, Sawgrass, Bay Hill, etc.

[Jud_T]

I think Mike K's comment that there's no other resort on the East Coast with two better courses is the key.  Bandon has raised the bar.  Pinehurst is great and I'm excited to see the renovation of #2, but let's face it, the resort proper has exactly 1 must play course as of this writing.  If both courses at Streamsong are legit top 100 tracks, and the jury's still out beyond the confines of Golf Club Atlas, then it will certainly be the most important resort in the U.S. since Bandon.  Whether or not it's better than Barnbougle/Lost Farm may be the subject of threads for years to come, although the sample who will have played both will be limited...(not having played Barnbougle or Streamsong my sense is that it might be pretty tough to beat two great tracks by the same GCA's on NATURALLY OCCURRING dunes)...Although if it's close in terms of pure GCA, there's probably a lot more potential visitors to Florida than to Tasmania...

[Sean Leary]

I think that Pinehurst post reno may be most important - I recall Mike Benham spearheading some sort of "Greenside Chats" to educate the masses on firm and fast, natural waste areas, etc.

Good point.

Mike B,

Any luck with your efforts yet?

[Kyle Harris]

Is it possible that Steamsong can break the world hyperbole record?

Only if it's hyperbole.

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