[Patrick_Mucci]

how do you explailn the undeniable success of the templates 100 years later ?

What's wrong with rectangular tees that align to a predetermined DZ ?

What's wrong with bunkers that get deeper as you approach a green ?

[Mac Plumart]

If you have to ask, you'll never understand.

 

[jeffwarne]

Nothing at all as long as the architect is old and dead.
 
Seriously, maturity of the grounds goes a long way

[Anthony Gray]

  I'll ask Mike Young.

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick, templates fall under the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra.  Nobody replicates a poorly designed hole/green.  

Few, if any of the prototypes are exactly replicated - there is often a nuance, be it distance, windage, bunkering, internal contouring, green size, etc.  The short hole at Lookout Mountain is very different from the short at Forsgate, but both are easily recognized as templates.  Similarly, the redans at North Berwick, Shinnecock Hills and Naitonal Golf Links of America are distant cousins, not identical triplets.   Same holds for the Biarittz holes at Old Macdonald, Black Creek and Blue Mound.

As you undoubtedly know, templates work because the originals are so damned good.  I have become a huge fan of the Macdonald/Raynor/Banks line.

Bogey

[Jon Wiggett]

Templates are inevitable as there are a limited number of basic designs for a golf hole. The secret is to make sure the design/strategy of a hole fits the land it is on.

Jon

[George Pazin]

Templates stress principles with proven results. Formulas are just lazy.

[Mike Hendren]

Templates are inevitable as there are a limited number of basic designs for a golf hole. The secret is to make sure the design/strategy of a hole fits the land it is on.

Jon

Jon, I'm not so sure.  A Short can be built anywhere provided the bunkers drain and if you believe Shinnecock's 7th is a Redan (my least favorite hole on that wonderful golf course) then that template can be built anywhere as well.  Ditto for an Eden, Road Hole and Double-Plateau.  Even an Alps if one can find the crest of a small hill.

Now that I think about it I would opine that templates work well because they travel well.


Mike

[PCCraig]

how do you explailn the undeniable success of the templates 100 years later ?

Part of me thinks that while templates were widely used 100 years ago, they were a success because to the members of the new courses being built, they were original holes. Meaning, many probably had never seen another version of their template, and unless they traveled or there was another similar course in their immediate area, they probably didn't see other examples.

[Dan Kelly]

Templates stress principles with proven results. Formulas are just lazy.

Grand slam home run, George.

And short enough for Twitter!

[Bill_McBride]

Templates are inevitable as there are a limited number of basic designs for a golf hole. The secret is to make sure the design/strategy of a hole fits the land it is on.

Jon

Jon, I'm not so sure.  A Short can be built anywhere provided the bunkers drain and if you believe Shinnecock's 7th is a Redan (my least favorite hole on that wonderful golf course) then that template can be built anywhere as well.  Ditto for an Eden, Road Hole and Double-Plateau.  Even an Alps if one can find the crest of a small hill.

Now that I think about it I would opine that templates work well because they travel well.


Mike

Why are there no Edens that come close to the Old Course?

I'm with Bogey on this.  I think Macdonald, Raynor and banks were so damned good at finding the best topography for each template.

Are there any of their courses that have just a handful of template holes because the land just didn't work?   Mountain Lake occurs to me.

[Mike Hendren]

Why are there no Edens that come close to the Old Course?

Bill, good question.  In my mind most Eden's replicate the bunkering scheme but lack the dramatic rise in the putting surface toward the rear with long being death (been there, done that!)  That's certainly the case with NGLA's Eden and assuming it was the original American version subsequent copies also lacked the high rear bank.  Ironically, the bunkering at Lookout Mountain's Eden is not faithful, but its severe back to front downward slope likely captures that element better than any other.  Most would not even acknowledge it as an Eden, however. 

Bogey

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why are there no Edens that come close to the Old Course?

Bill, good question. 

In my mind most Eden's replicate the bunkering scheme but lack the dramatic rise in the putting surface toward the rear with long being death (been there, done that!) 

That's certainly the case with NGLA's Eden and assuming it was the original American version subsequent copies also lacked the high rear bank. 

Michael,

GCGC's Eden preceeded NGLA's by a decade or more.
It's a pretty good Eden, but, the setting of the original is tough to match.

Regarding the Eden at NGLA there is a dramatic rise in the putting surface toward the rear of the green, as there is at GCGC.

I'd say that the difficulty in creating and replicating a great Eden is modern day green speeds which render the back half of the green uncupable.

You can replicate the slope/rise, you just can't use it with green speeds of 9-13.

NGLA's Eden is brilliant since that green can be played to replicate the approach shots at # 7 and # 11 at TOC, which is what the Eden Green at TOC does.

[George Pazin]

Why are there no Edens that come close to the Old Course?

Bill, good question.  In my mind most Eden's replicate the bunkering scheme but lack the dramatic rise in the putting surface toward the rear with long being death (been there, done that!)  That's certainly the case with NGLA's Eden and assuming it was the original American version subsequent copies also lacked the high rear bank.  Ironically, the bunkering at Lookout Mountain's Eden is not faithful, but its severe back to front downward slope likely captures that element better than any other.  Most would not even acknowledge it as an Eden, however. 

Bogey

Perhaps many misunderstand what really causes the difficulty of the original.

[Bill_McBride]

Why are there no Edens that come close to the Old Course?

Bill, good question.  In my mind most Eden's replicate the bunkering scheme but lack the dramatic rise in the putting surface toward the rear with long being death (been there, done that!)  That's certainly the case with NGLA's Eden and assuming it was the original American version subsequent copies also lacked the high rear bank.  Ironically, the bunkering at Lookout Mountain's Eden is not faithful, but its severe back to front downward slope likely captures that element better than any other.  Most would not even acknowledge it as an Eden, however. 

Bogey

Perhaps many misunderstand what really causes the difficulty of the original.

Which is?

In my opinion, what they all miss is the intersection of two steep slopes, left to right off Hill Bunker and back to front toward Strath.

I don't think of the others have the "Strath" placed far enough left to be as dastardly as the original. 

Pat, has NGLA ever built a tee to create the angle one would find from the 7th fairway and make your dream come true?

[DMoriarty]

Are there any of their courses that have just a handful of template holes because the land just didn't work?

NGLA.

[Peter Pallotta]

Patrick - a good try, but you get only the "participation badge" on this one.  Your thread title and three-point post actually comprises 4 different elements/questions, not the single/unfied one you seem to think.

Formulaic architecture  -- by definition, that which preferences rule bound ideas and common practice over original thought and bold action -- has very little to do with the attempt, via template holes, to manifest the underlying principles of good architecture on widely-differng sites/landscapes in individual and fitting ways.  Similarly, formulaic architecture has little to do with time-and-cost-saving goals that engendered the use of rectangular tee boxes, nor is it the main rationale for the pandering to the lowest common skill-level that then orients those tee boxes towards the ideal DZ.  And finally, the attempt to produce more punishing bunkers is less formulaic than it is a dull-witted and cynical stab and maintaining some semblance of a penal ethos on an otherwise golfer-friendly track.

No need to thank me. I just thought you'd want to know that this wasn't one of your gold-medal winning threads. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

The footpad for that tee has been there for about a century.

It just needs to be mowed to tee height.

[George Pazin]

Perhaps many misunderstand what really causes the difficulty of the original.

Which is?

Damned if I know. Haven't had the pleasure of the original or any template of note. I was merely positing that maybe people seem to focus on the bunkers and their respective placements, as opposed to the green contours and slopes.

[Bill_McBride]

Perhaps many misunderstand what really causes the difficulty of the original.

Which is?

Damned if I know. Haven't had the pleasure of the original or any template of note. I was merely positing that maybe people seem to focus on the bunkers and their respective placements, as opposed to the green contours and slopes.

George, as I mentioned above I think it's the unique combination of both bunkers and slopes that makes the original so special.   Most templates, including NGLA, have the Strath bunker off to the right.   It's hard to exaggerate how steep the slopes are from the left and from behind, and where they intersect, it's diabolical.

[Sean_A]

Ace

You need to play Cavendish.  The obvious attempt at an Eden worked damn well.  Indeed, the slope from back to front may be even more severe than TOC's.  Tee shots easily funnel back between the bunkers leaving a terribly awkward recovery.  The wind, which is a huge factor for THE EDEN, is big factor at Cavendish as well. 





Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

Ace

You need to play Cavendish.  The obvious attempt at an Eden worked damn well.  Indeed, the slope from back to front may be even more severe than TOC's.  Tee shots easily funnel back between the bunkers leaving a terribly awkward recovery.  The wind, which is a huge factor for THE EDEN, is big factor at Cavendish as well.  

Ciao

That's a good one for sure.  Trouble behind?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat, Raynor and Mac excelled at routing and placement and selection of holes. Most do not seem to have that gift and it has given the formula a bad name.

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