Seven Oaks golf course at Colgate University

[Alex Lagowitz]

TO THE GOLF CLUB ATLAS COMMUNITY:

I am a student at Colgate University.  Over the last few months, and for the upcoming year or so, I am researching and putting together an analysis of the history and evolution of the architecture of Colgate's golf courses.  This has proven to be an interesting endeavor, as so much information that we thought was in the archives is missing (the administrative building burnt down a while ago).  Regardless, I have been chosen to do this by the administration, and I am reaching out to the GCA community for some help.  If anyone out there has played Colgate's golf course, has information about the course, old aerials of Central NY, Robert Trent Jones archives, or basically anything that you think will help me in this project, I would really appreciate you reaching out to me either via this thread, PM, or my email alagowitz@colgate.edu.
Also, if anyone knows of any newspaper websites that might cover central newyork (specifically Hamilton NY) that would be appreciated.

I know this is a very specific enquiry, but there has to be someone out there who can help me out.

Thanks again!

Alex Lagowitz

[Ronald Montesano]

JNC JUNIOR!!!!!!

[Doug Sobieski]

Alex:

A friend of mine won a Hogan Tour (now called the Nationwide Tour) event there in the early 90's. His name is Tom Garner. To track him down, call the golf shop at the Bay Hill Club in Orlando, and they can probably connect you.

Interesting note, he won two events on the Hogan Tour, and they were both at courses called Seven Oaks.

Regards,

Doug

[Brad Tufts]

Hey Alex,

I would guess there is some RTJ archive over at Cornell, not too far from you at Colgate.  Maybe a call to the Turf Management or Landscape Architecture program over at Cornell might be a good start?

Would be cool to know more about Seven Oaks...I have played twice...both in the last 5 years.

-Brad

[Mike Sweeney]

Hey Alex,

I would guess there is some RTJ archive over at Cornell, not too far from you at Colgate. 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46756.0.html

[Joey Chase]

They have alot of RTJ's files at Cornell.  In fact, they have all of his plans from his office when it closed.  Last I heard though, it was closed to the public.  For this situation, I'm sure they'd let you see them.  Also, contact Roger Rulewich's office about it if you haven't already.  He has alot of knowledge about Jones' work.

[Mark McKeever]

I assume you have met the infamous John Lyon right?

Mark

[Andrew Calcutt]

Alex,

That is a great golf course.  It was my home track for four years.  Have you talked to Braden Houston, my old golf coach?  I'm pretty sure he has some old newspaper clippings and things at his house.  He lives on the third hole.  He's been at Colgate since the sixties.  He could put you in touch with alumni that were there when it was built.

Let me know if I can do anything to help,

Andrew

[Ronald Montesano]

John Blain should be of some help, too.

[Alex Lagowitz]

Alex,

That is a great golf course.  It was my home track for four years.  Have you talked to Braden Houston, my old golf coach?  I'm pretty sure he has some old newspaper clippings and things at his house.  He lives on the third hole.  He's been at Colgate since the sixties.  He could put you in touch with alumni that were there when it was built.

Let me know if I can do anything to help,

Andrew

Andrew,

I am in the process of setting up a meeting with Brad.  I am also on the golf team here, which has helped me in this process.
Overall, I am doing this project for the school, not just for myself, so the school is helping me along in this process.  When I speak to Brad, Ill be sure to mention you.

[Alex Lagowitz]

UPDATE:   Just to clear some things up and thanks to everyone that has helped so far

To put some context into this research, my reason for doing this project is that I was offered this job by the school to compile and analyze the architectural history and evolution of the Seven Oaks golf course.  The opportunity for this job came about after I had already begun some independent research (in curiosity), but now I am fully committed to do this on behalf of the school.  For now, I am planning on compiling all the information I can which will help me accomplish this.  So far I have already been through Colgate's archives and we are in possession of a few preliminary plans and some detailing.  Because the archive building burnt down, a lot of the archives are missing and my role is to piece back together the design phases and how the course came to be as it is today. 
In regards to the RTJ archives at Cornell: We are working on this, and it may take some time but ultimately our goal is to get me up there for a week or so (next summer), and really dig into whatever they provide for me.
Some of the questions I am looking to answer are:
- How does Seven Oaks fit into the RTJ portfolio?
- Is it unique in any matter or similar to other courses?
- Why were there so many different plans drawn and did the lapse of time between design and construction have anything to do with this?
- Why are there no fairway bunkers, and were there ever intended to be any?
- How did the Dutch Elm Disease affect the architectural integrity of some of the holes?
- Did RTJ suggest the planting of trees?
- What was Gene Sarazen's role in the course design (his name has popped up quite a few times)?

The list goes on and on, but overall this project is going to take quite a long time before completion.
My request to the GCA community is to answer the following questions if applicable and hopefully this can help me understand a little bit more....

When did you first play the course?
When did you last play the course?
Any differences?
Were their any glaring "bad" features in course?
Any good?
How did you react to the lack of fairway bunkers?
If you had to describe the course in 5 words, what would you choose?

Also, thank you very much to those who have reached out to me on this thread and via email.  This is why I just love the GCA community.



And yes, I have talked to John Lyon.

[Ed Homsey]

Alex--Sounds like you have a major task ahead of you.  I wish you well.  You asked about newspaper archives.  I would suggest www.FultonHistory.com

It is not a very user friendly site, but offers access literally to millions of New York State vintage newspapers.

I played Seven Oaks for the first time last season.  I enjoyed the manner in which the holes are woven among that ubiquitous creek. lt creates a significant degree of interest that would be hard to duplicate with fairway bunkers.

A question I had about the course deals with its current routing.  I'm not sure if its after the 4th or 5th holes, but there was a major walk to the next tee--past other tee boxes that would seem to have been more appropriate.  My playing partners and I had the feeling that the current routing is not as RTJ laid it out.  Hope someone out there knows the answer to that, or that you will discover the answer to it.

[Alex Lagowitz]

Alex--Sounds like you have a major task ahead of you.  I wish you well.  You asked about newspaper archives.  I would suggest www.FultonHistory.com

It is not a very user friendly site, but offers access literally to millions of New York State vintage newspapers.

I played Seven Oaks for the first time last season.  I enjoyed the manner in which the holes are woven among that ubiquitous creek. lt creates a significant degree of interest that would be hard to duplicate with fairway bunkers.

A question I had about the course deals with its current routing.  I'm not sure if its after the 4th or 5th holes, but there was a major walk to the next tee--past other tee boxes that would seem to have been more appropriate.  My playing partners and I had the feeling that the current routing is not as RTJ laid it out.  Hope someone out there knows the answer to that, or that you will discover the answer to it.

You are probably talking about the walk between 3 and 4.  If I remember correctly, that is not the same RTJ routing but I'll have to check out the plans again.  An original 9 holes was built by RTJ and then the second nine later one.  I am 100% sure that some of the holes on the front nine became part of the back but I am pretty sure that the current course was rerouted by RTJ but it is not original.

[John Blain]

Alex-

Before you do anything else what you really need to do is call my wife at the Seven Oaks golf shop. Trust me when I tell you that there is no one walking the face of the earth that has more knowledge of the history of Seven Oaks than she does.

Best of luck to you.

John Blain

[JNagle]

Alex -

You may also want to start speaking with a fellow student Will Delano, he has started some of the research you are looking for.

 wdelano@students.colgate.edu

I was recently with clients at the Golf Industry Show in Las Vegas and we were discussing this very topic last night over dinner.  The Superintendent at Peninsula Golf & Country Club, Frank Zamazel, mentioned the recent death of a Colgate Alum, Mr. Redstone.  I do not recall his first name, however, he was to have known very much about the course.  His family may have some information.  You may want to ask Marian Blain about Mr. Redstone.

As far was we know, the course was originally designed by both Mr. Jones and Mr. Zarazen in 1934.  That course never materialized.  Mr. Jones came back and completed another design for eighteen holes which is different from the 34 design.  Again, nothing was built.  It was not until about 1955 that Jones returned and built nine holes, probably 1-9 or 1-8 with the 12th being the 9th.  During the early 60's Roger Rulewich, as a young associate to Mr. Jones designs the second 9.  The course has always been without fairway bunkers however, the early designs were VERY strategic and much different than exists.  Those early drawings and the writings of RTJ Sr. are the basis of our renovation of the course.

Best of Luck with your research and let me know if we may assist you in any way.

Jim Nagle
Forse Design, Inc.

[JNC Lyon]

Honestly, I'm just embarrassed for myself right now.  I'm a history major and a golf architecture nut while at Colgate, and I did NONE of this sort of research.  C'MON MAN!  I guess I spent too much time at the Bacon and the Jug while there…but priorities are priorities.

Alex, who are you working with in the school administration on this project?  Is the history department involved at all?

From those in the know, what's story on the renovation/restoration at Seven Oaks?  Former CCR Asst. Supt. John McConville has done an incredible job with the golf course on a tight budget.  The pine tree removal and establishment of fescue (I'm thinking 13 and 17 especially here) has been incredible.  If you played Seven Oaks five years ago, you played a different course than what's there today.

How about a Leatherstocking--Seven Oaks GCA outing this summer?

[Alex Lagowitz]

Honestly, I'm just embarrassed for myself right now.  I'm a history major and a golf architecture nut while at Colgate, and I did NONE of this sort of research.  C'MON MAN!  I guess I spent too much time at the Bacon and the Jug while there…but priorities are priorities.

Alex, who are you working with in the school administration on this project?  Is the history department involved at all?

From those in the know, what's story on the renovation/restoration at Seven Oaks?  Former CCR Asst. Supt. John McConville has done an incredible job with the golf course on a tight budget.  The pine tree removal and establishment of fescue (I'm thinking 13 and 17 especially here) has been incredible.  If you played Seven Oaks five years ago, you played a different course than what's there today.

How about a Leatherstocking--Seven Oaks GCA outing this summer?

John,

This project is still in its preliminary stages, but my architecture professor Robert McVaugh had brought to me this idea in which he suggested I work with him through the next couples of years or so on the project.  From my basic understanding, he is in charge of the bicentennial planning committee and due to Seven Oak's importance, would like to include something for the occasion.  Mostly, this will be a large research assignment for me that will result in a solid, architecturally based history report (or book) on Seven Oaks.  Additionally, retired professor Jim Ford is supposedly writing a history book for the course in which he intends to include the course.  Where myself and him differ is that my goal is to interpret and analyze the changes in plans and evolution through the years.  Some aspects of this job include analyzing the plans that were not used and determine how the course would have been if said plans were constructed.  There is a lot more but its just too much to put in one post!

In regards to the renovation, Forse design (Jim Nagle) are in charge of the project but as always with Colgate, time and money are always a problem.  I would love to see the course restoration completed in the next 3 years, but that may be too optimistic.

PS: Dont confuse my GCA love and time commitment with my nightlife.  Two completely different things and we know what a college student's priorities are. 

[JNC Lyon]

Alex,

This sounds like a fantastic project.  I'm sure you'll uncover a bunch of things that nobody knew (or remembered) about the construction of the golf course.  As you'll find out, the work in the plans and the work on the ground can be very different.  This sort of book has to be pretty unusual for college courses as well.  How many classic college courses have histories?  I'm sure there are a bunch of guys on here that know the answer, but I don't.  Either way, completing a project like this would be phenomenal.

We should play golf in the near future (although I know time constraints of the golf team are tough).  Maybe we can get JPBlain to join us for a game.

And, as you'll find out, a love of GCA and a love of drinking usually mix pretty well.