[Greg Tallman]

Ocean Course #5 - BEFORE


Ocean Course #5 - AFTER


BEFORE


AFTER


Interested in general impressions from admittedly poor photos before detailing the changes.

[Anthony Gray]

  Too infinity and beyond.

  Anthony

[Jason Topp]

Greg - as you know I have only played the "after" version.  I liked the green shape and the infinity effect and I suspect I prefer the green without the bunker rather than the version that existed before.

I must admit, however, that the area to the right seemed a bit naked. Perhaps a few palm trees to the right of the current hole would help the look of that area without affecting play or detracting from the changes behind the green?

[Emile Bonfiglio]

Greg - as you know I have only played the "after" version.  I liked the green shape and the infinity effect and I suspect I prefer the green without the bunker rather than the version that existed before.

I must admit, however, that the area to the right seemed a bit naked. Perhaps a few palm trees to the right of the current hole would help the look of that area without affecting play or detracting from the changes behind the green?

Having hit my second shot into the bushes on the left which led to a punch out that ran off the green to the area front right of the green, I can say that the nakedness doesn't make the hole any easier. I thought it was a tough up and down there, especially with a front right pin placement. I really like this current version, the other reminded me too much of #3 on the ocean course at Palmilla (the one and only....)

[Jud_T]

I think this is the hole that they were working on when I was there.  Time for another visit!!

[Greg Tallman]

Greg - as you know I have only played the "after" version.  I liked the green shape and the infinity effect and I suspect I prefer the green without the bunker rather than the version that existed before.

I must admit, however, that the area to the right seemed a bit naked. Perhaps a few palm trees to the right of the current hole would help the look of that area without affecting play or detracting from the changes behind the green?

Jason, I will eventually win my battle to pull the beach in along the right side. Better stated re-introducing the beach look along the right side so that the knob some 25 yards rights of the green would be a dunish look with ocean grasses and unmaintained once established.

Beyond that the extended area you may be referencing will see some low growing landscaping all the way over to the 6th tee in anticipation of the eventuality that is a beach club tucked back into the hillside well right of the 5th green.  



That which you mention is why these trees were left. they do break up the open nature of the right side from the approach. If you hit it past these guys then I need to take lessons.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg - as you know I have only played the "after" version.  I liked the green shape and the infinity effect and I suspect I prefer the green without the bunker rather than the version that existed before.

I must admit, however, that the area to the right seemed a bit naked. Perhaps a few palm trees to the right of the current hole would help the look of that area without affecting play or detracting from the changes behind the green?

Having hit my second shot into the bushes on the left which led to a punch out that ran off the green to the area front right of the green, I can say that the nakedness doesn't make the hole any easier. I thought it was a tough up and down there, especially with a front right pin placement. I really like this current version, the other reminded me too much of #3 on the ocean course at Palmilla (the one and only....)

As you note the lack of bunkering ("nakedness") does not result in ease of recovery around the green. With the green spilling off in all directions there are plenty of interesting bump and run, putt or flop shot options from the right and behind this green.

While it readily accpets a running approach it does play a bit tougher than I had anticipated. Not a bad thing I must say.

[Tom_Doak]

Greg:  Very interesting.  When we were working on Sebonack, Mr. Nicklaus was not at all fond of the look of greens "floating" on the horizon and the induced fear of what would happen to you if you went through the back.  Looks like he has changed his mind on that score!

The hole would photograph way better though if you had yellow flags.  What color is that against the sea?  Black?

[John Kirk]

  Too infinity and beyond.

  Anthony

I disagree.  The green is not too infinity.  It's just right.

[Anthony Gray]

  Castle Stuart is full of infinity greens like these. Punta Espada has a couple neat ones too.

  Anthony

[Mac Plumart]

I like the new one a lot better.

[RJ_Daley]

I love the new appearance and how one might imagine it plays now vs then.  What are the tee block yardages set?  How many sq ft is the green? 

[Greg Tallman]

Greg:  Very interesting.  When we were working on Sebonack, Mr. Nicklaus was not at all fond of the look of greens "floating" on the horizon and the induced fear of what would happen to you if you went through the back.  Looks like he has changed his mind on that score!

The hole would photograph way better though if you had yellow flags.  What color is that against the sea?  Black?

Quite a bit of run out beyond, 15 yards or so. not many going long here other than a bladed pitch shot which could end up on the beach but playable.

Yes black, aganist turquiose shows up rather well actually. I have a pre-2000 camera.

And for the record never heard Jack express anything against infinity green but rather death long whihc, as noted above, is not the case here. Unlike a seasoned vet like you to jump to such a conclusion from a mere photo.

[Anthony Gray]

  I think Jack used infinity greens where ever he could at Punta Espada. Also  the 18ths at Cabo del Sol and Punta Espada are very similar .

  Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Greg:  Very interesting.  When we were working on Sebonack, Mr. Nicklaus was not at all fond of the look of greens "floating" on the horizon and the induced fear of what would happen to you if you went through the back.  Looks like he has changed his mind on that score!

The hole would photograph way better though if you had yellow flags.  What color is that against the sea?  Black?

Quite a bit of run out beyond, 15 yards or so. not many going long here other than a bladed pitch shot which could end up on the beach but playable.

Yes black, aganist turquiose shows up rather well actually. I have a pre-2000 camera.

And for the record never heard Jack express anything against infinity green but rather death long whihc, as noted above, is not the case here. Unlike a seasoned vet like you to jump to such a conclusion from a mere photo.

"Death long" is your choice of words, not mine.  Mine was "induced fear of what would happen if you went through the back."  I guess if Jack is doing it, instead of me doing it, he isn't so afraid of it.

[Greg Tallman]

I love the new appearance and how one might imagine it plays now vs then.  What are the tee block yardages set?  How many sq ft is the green? 

RJ,

Black - 490 (old 481)
Gold - 469 (old 451)
Blue - 413/447 (old 434)
White - 360 (Cool drivable hole from here... old 332 from totally different angle... will post pics later)
Red - 320 (old 290)

Green is roughly 7000 square feet

BIggest difference now is the land falls down to the beach whereas previously the green sat up about 1.5-2 meters higher and some 30 yards further from tyhe water than it does now. New hole accepts a running shot better. Best leave is still short left as before.

A far more natural look as well.

[Anthony Gray]

  I like that they did not see it necessary to put the trap back in. With the wind off the ocean it allows for the low shot better.

  Anthony

[Greg Tallman]

Greg:  Very interesting.  When we were working on Sebonack, Mr. Nicklaus was not at all fond of the look of greens "floating" on the horizon and the induced fear of what would happen to you if you went through the back.  Looks like he has changed his mind on that score!

The hole would photograph way better though if you had yellow flags.  What color is that against the sea?  Black?

Quite a bit of run out beyond, 15 yards or so. not many going long here other than a bladed pitch shot which could end up on the beach but playable.

Yes black, aganist turquiose shows up rather well actually. I have a pre-2000 camera.

And for the record never heard Jack express anything against infinity green but rather death long whihc, as noted above, is not the case here. Unlike a seasoned vet like you to jump to such a conclusion from a mere photo.

"Death long" is your choice of words, not mine.  Mine was "induced fear of what would happen if you went through the back."  I guess if Jack is doing it, instead of me doing it, he isn't so afraid of it.
[/quote

Actually Tom, if you reread the comment they are Jack's words not mine or yours.

[Greg Tallman]

I think this is the hole that they were working on when I was there.  Time for another visit!!

And pending the Olympic Committee decision that visit could be on the house!

[Greg Tallman]

Greg:  Very interesting.  When we were working on Sebonack, Mr. Nicklaus was not at all fond of the look of greens "floating" on the horizon and the induced fear of what would happen to you if you went through the back.  Looks like he has changed his mind on that score!

The hole would photograph way better though if you had yellow flags.  What color is that against the sea?  Black?

Quite a bit of run out beyond, 15 yards or so. not many going long here other than a bladed pitch shot which could end up on the beach but playable.

Yes black, aganist turquiose shows up rather well actually. I have a pre-2000 camera.

And for the record never heard Jack express anything against infinity green but rather death long whihc, as noted above, is not the case here. Unlike a seasoned vet like you to jump to such a conclusion from a mere photo.

"Death long" is your choice of words, not mine.  Mine was "induced fear of what would happen if you went through the back."  I guess if Jack is doing it, instead of me doing it, he isn't so afraid of it.

So if this were something you would do then one wold assume you think the changes are for the better, correct?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Greg,
As you know I have only played the current version, but the sadist in me would like to have seen more use of the beach, similar to the next hole.
I like what you say about your desire for the right side...that would be really cool.
I am so impressed by the overall course thouigh, I was very pleasantly surprised at the calibre of holes 1-18...a wonderful set of par 3's...cant wait to come back.

[Sean Leary]

Is there a better desert course in the world?  Best I have played.

[Greg Tallman]

Is there a better desert course in the world?  Best I have played.

Sean,

Times are tough. No matter how many times you pose this question I cannot find room for you on our payroll.

That said, if you ever get back this way I will certainly treat you to a michelada or 2 along with some fine aged tequila.

Your comments are most appreciated.

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