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Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chambers Bay -- What If?
« on: February 27, 2012, 05:04:21 PM »
Fact: Chambers Bay is building a new tee box for Hole 1, which will be located adjacent to the Rolex Clock overlooking the practice green.

Fact:  Chambers Bay is seriously thinking about converting the 1st hole (now a Par 4) into a Par 5, and changing the 13th hole (now a Par 5) into a Par 4.

Fact: With the preceding changes, Chambers Bay would become a Par 37 on the front (1, 4, and 8 being Par 5's) and a Par 35 on the back (18 being the lone Par 5).

Fact: Chambers Bay is an extraordinarily long walk (over 7 miles) for a walking-only course, and takes a long time to play (rounds routinely exceeding 5 hours).

Fact: The tee to green transitions between holes 3 and 4 (uphill and nearly 300 yards), 9 and 10 (over 250 yards), and 14 and 15 (also nearly 250 yards) help explain both the distance and time problems.

Bearing these facts in mind, what if -- just what if -- the course changed its routing so that the round begins with what is now Hole 10 ("High Dunes") and then goes, in order of current hole number, 11, 6, 7, 8, 9, 1, 2, 3, 12, 13, 14, 4, 5, 15, 16, 17, and 18. It would look something like this:



Note: The redline traces the walk including green to tee transitions; existing hole numbers appear in light blue.

Positives that occur to me:

* Each of the incredibly long green to tee transitions would be shortened considerably. By my estimation, the proposed routing would eliminate as much as 500 yards or so of green to tee walking. The course would be more walkable and ideally a quicker play.

* "High Dunes" (current Hole 10) would serve as a more modest, but more exciting, introduction to the course. Current Hole 1 is a lot to ask as an opener -- and while probably better if played as a Par 5, would become the "dreaded" Par 5 opening hole.

* The re-route would return the two sets of 9's to Par 36 each, with the "front 9" consisting of current holes 8 and 1 as Par 5's and the "back 9" consisting of current holes 4 and 18 as Par 5's. The two sets of 9's would also have approximately equal aggregate yardage.

Negatives that occur to me:

* Current hole 9 would become hole 6, meaning that the two sets of 9's would not start and end at the "snack shack." While this won't have any impact on those playing an 18-hole round, it would limit those who want to get in a "quick nine" in the late afternoon.

* The new routing would involve playing current holes 13, 14, 4, and 5 in sequence. That is a lot of back-and-forth and, as it happens, up and down. But I think this issue could be ameliorated if the tees for current hole 4 were re-located to the north, and thus situated next to the 14th green. This would give the 4th hole more of a "sidewise" feel. 

* With this re-routing, Hole 5 would probably lose its alternate green. But I ask you, who on this board has played it? Because in the dozen or more rounds I've played, I haven't seen it used once.

Okay, have at it.  What if?

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2012, 05:15:07 PM »
I predict that you get several people who disagree with your fourth Fact, although I think you're correct.


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2012, 05:38:02 PM »
"Fact" 4 is indeed not factual.

I mapped it using Google Earth and it came out to 5.15 miles +/- .1 miles.  The measurement was taken from the 1st tee, to the 18th green.

P.S. I've mapped several places here using Google Earth and then drove it in my car.  It was always accurate down to the 10th of a mile, which is the smallest my car odometer will measure.

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2012, 05:57:37 PM »
Kalen, I agree with your police work.

I obviously used Google Earth to "map out" my proposed alternate routing too. I state 7 miles as a "fact," however, based on the actual experience on the ground. I've talked to several golfers who wear pedometers and they all report that the average round is closer to 7 miles than the 5 you can get tracing a "perfect" route on Google Earth.

All that said, I'll concede that you're right and I'm wrong about the 7-mile thing. That doesn't change the fact that my proposed routing would still be about 500 yards shorter than the existing routing, with less up and down transitions between 3 and 4 and 14 and 15.

So, to the merits. What if?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2012, 06:05:04 PM »
Do you need to re-measure due to the inaccuracy of your "13", or do you simply need to redraw your line?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2012, 06:08:26 PM »
Kalen, I agree with your police work.

I obviously used Google Earth to "map out" my proposed alternate routing too. I state 7 miles as a "fact," however, based on the actual experience on the ground. I've talked to several golfers who wear pedometers and they all report that the average round is closer to 7 miles than the 5 you can get tracing a "perfect" route on Google Earth.

All that said, I'll concede that you're right and I'm wrong about the 7-mile thing. That doesn't change the fact that my proposed routing would still be about 500 yards shorter than the existing routing, with less up and down transitions between 3 and 4 and 14 and 15.

So, to the merits. What if?

Pedometers, yeah they're real accurate. Kalen's right on this. Hitting the ball off line does not add much to the length of the walk. 7 is just not a fact, it is a ridiculous estimate.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2012, 06:11:36 PM »
Do you need to re-measure due to the inaccuracy of your "13", or do you simply need to redraw your line?


Good catch. My 13 reflects my belief that the existing tees for 4 should be moved closer to the green for my hole 12. They wouldn't need to be located where they are now as the 4th hole, and would give an interesting look to the hole. That said, though, you're right -- the line would need to be re-drawn if the tees were not moved. The distance would still be considerably shorter than the walk from current 14 to current 15.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2012, 06:12:46 PM »
Kalen, I agree with your police work.

I obviously used Google Earth to "map out" my proposed alternate routing too. I state 7 miles as a "fact," however, based on the actual experience on the ground. I've talked to several golfers who wear pedometers and they all report that the average round is closer to 7 miles than the 5 you can get tracing a "perfect" route on Google Earth.

All that said, I'll concede that you're right and I'm wrong about the 7-mile thing. That doesn't change the fact that my proposed routing would still be about 500 yards shorter than the existing routing, with less up and down transitions between 3 and 4 and 14 and 15.

So, to the merits. What if?

Joe,

I don't disagree with that, because using Google Earth assumes the golfer will split the middle of every fairway, hit the middle of every green and walk the shortest path to the next tee.  In reality we know golfers spray the ball around, help others find balls, search for yardage markers, and often walk extra around the greens when playing bunker shots, setting their clubs down, looking at putts, etc. 

So those same numbers can be added to any round, not just playing at Chambers Bay.

P.S. I do like your routing better, I must admit.  The only downside would be having to play #10 as the 1st hole right out of the shoot.  I'd much rather savor a beauty like that later on in the round as #10, but that's a small thing.

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2012, 06:17:37 PM »
The only downside would be having to play #10 as the 1st hole right out of the shoot.  I'd much rather savor a beauty like that later on in the round as #10, but that's a small thing.

Chambers Bay starts players off of #10 once or twice a week -- during the winter months, anyway. I've played it that way a few times and at first I was disappointed, but I have grown to like it as an introduction to the course. What I don't like is finishing with #8 and #9.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2012, 06:21:56 PM »
The only downside would be having to play #10 as the 1st hole right out of the shoot.  I'd much rather savor a beauty like that later on in the round as #10, but that's a small thing.

Chambers Bay starts players off of #10 once or twice a week -- during the winter months, anyway. I've played it that way a few times and at first I was disappointed, but I have grown to like it as an introduction to the course. What I don't like is finishing with #8 and #9.

Agreed,

8 and 9, especially 8, are pretty easily the red-headed step kids of that course...that would be a bummer finish.  But sounds like you get to play there a lot, so not so awful for you to have to endure such a tragedy!  ;)

P.S. I also think 10-15 in the current configuration is a terrific stretch of holes, so breaking that up would be a bummer.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2012, 07:17:16 PM »
I am fine with the course as it is. I think these changes are for the Open and not for every day golfers.

Anthony Gray

Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2012, 07:37:22 PM »


  the current first is a little too tuff for an opener.

  Anthony



Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2012, 07:40:47 PM »
I really like the 1st hole at CB, I'm surprised it gets slagged from time to time.

Its such a wide fairway, but you realize you have to hit a good one to get it over the ridge that runs mostly horizontal across the fairway.  I thought it was an interesting way to start the round. 

I think it would also work good as a par 5 too with the tees moved back 100 yards or so.

Either way, a terrific opening hole....

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2012, 08:15:36 PM »
I am fine with the course as it is. I think these changes are for the Open and not for every day golfers.

Except Facts 1, 2, and 3 will change things any how. Will that matter to you?

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2012, 09:32:04 PM »
Joe,

Are they really considering changing the routing or is this your idea?

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2012, 10:33:18 PM »
Two negatives to my way of thinking. The current 10th hole (becoming #1) has a very precise approach which would not be great on an opening hole. The current 5th hole has an alternate green which, when in use, can effect how the current 6th hole is played. Re-routing would eliminate this option.

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2012, 12:11:13 AM »
Joe,

Are they really considering changing the routing or is this your idea?

My idea. Nobody else is to blame.

But Chambers Bay IS thinking about changing Hole 1 to a Par 5 and Hole 13 to a Par 4, which would make the course play as a Par 37, Par 35. That's not necessarily a problem, but I got to thinking about it, and thought this re-routing was a clever way to address that issue plus the long green to tee walks.


Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chambers Bay -- What If?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2012, 12:15:18 AM »
Two negatives to my way of thinking. The current 10th hole (becoming #1) has a very precise approach which would not be great on an opening hole. The current 5th hole has an alternate green which, when in use, can effect how the current 6th hole is played. Re-routing would eliminate this option.
I agree with both of your points. But you have to admit that Hole 1 requires a pretty precise approach shot, too, only a much longer one (at least as a Par 4). And have you played the 5th hole alternate green? It just seems so rarely used -- I have more than an average number of rounds there and haven't come close to playing yet.