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Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2012, 07:04:38 PM »
I remember sitting with P.B. Dye and one of his friends one night and as P.B. was expounding on how to build courses, his friend interrupted to ask if it was wise to share all of that with me.  His response?  "If Tom Doak is smart enough to understand all this and go out and build better courses than we can, more power to him."  That is the Dyes in a nutshell.

Tom
Is P.B.'s best course better than your worst course?
Are any of the Dye's best courses better than any of Bill's or your worst courses since you've struck out on your own?
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2012, 07:22:24 PM »
Mike:

Come on, man.

I've only seen two of P.B.'s courses -- one of which was clearly better than my own worst course.  And I hope I have as many excellent courses to my name when I retire as P.B.'s dad has.

I also hope I've given as many other young people a chance to get into the business as Pete has.

P.S.  I don't think P.B. really thought I'd ever get to where I am today, but I am sure he meant what he said, anyway.

Ian Andrew

Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2012, 08:17:36 PM »
What will Pete Dye's historical legacy's be in 100 years?  I would argue that Pete Dye--once his courses and the courses of his protege's are given historical context--will be considered the pre-imminent architect of the last half of the 20th century.  Though RTJ, Nicklaus and Fazio all deserve some merit in that conversation, their protege's impact on golf has been less than that of Pete Dye.
 

He'll be judged only on his work.
Mr. Colt is judged for his courses, not for his many wonderful associates.

His place in the World Golf Hall of Fame says volumes about his legacy.


Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2012, 11:25:14 PM »
I remember sitting with P.B. Dye and one of his friends one night and as P.B. was expounding on how to build courses, his friend interrupted to ask if it was wise to share all of that with me.  His response?  "If Tom Doak is smart enough to understand all this and go out and build better courses than we can, more power to him."  That is the Dyes in a nutshell.

Tom
Is P.B.'s best course better than your worst course?
Are any of the Dye's best courses better than any of Bill's or your worst courses since you've struck out on your own?
Cheers

Mike, are you serious? Please tell me you are not. Tom started building courses in the late 80s. So Tom's worst course would have to be better than Kiawah, Pete Dye Golf Club and Whistling Straits, just to name 3 top 100 courses Dye has build since about 1990. You could also add other highly noteable designs such as Bulle Rock, French Lick and Colleton River.

The ironic thing is that many have argued that Dye's work has declined in quality since the mid 80s. I am not about to refute that here, however if Dye only built those courses I named above he would still go down as a great designer. Goes to show how high his overall body of work is.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2012, 11:43:39 PM »
Well, Bulle Rock is definitely worse than the worst Doak I have ever played.  Still wish I had ventured over to Beechtree before it closed instead.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2012, 12:03:29 AM »
Tim
I had a chance to play Beechtree 2 or 3 times one weekend.  I ate lunch at Bulle Rock twice, rode the course and went back to Beechtree to play again.  Not even close.

Matt
I was figuring after Whistling was built - didn't remember it was '98 - even though it had/has its problems too.
I've played Kiawah, Sawgrass, Whistling Straits, Dye Fore -- I prefer The Golf Club & Teeth of the Dog

Come on Tom  :)
I like Perry and have had a good number of laughs with him over the last 5 or 6 years.
I've even heard a few stories about your earliest days...  and some very good Pete stories.
I've never met P.B. nor am I aware of any of his work.
I was just guessing based on some pictures I've seen of some strange stuff.

What are the worst holes you've ever built(#s 1-18 like the most disappointing thread)?
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2012, 12:07:35 AM »

Mike, are you serious? Please tell me you are not. Tom started building courses in the late 80s. So Tom's worst course would have to be better than Kiawah, Pete Dye Golf Club and Whistling Straits, just to name 3 top 100 courses Dye has build since about 1990. You could also add other highly noteable designs such as Bulle Rock, French Lick and Colleton River.

The ironic thing is that many have argued that Dye's work has declined in quality since the mid 80s. I am not about to refute that here, however if Dye only built those courses I named above he would still go down as a great designer. Goes to show how high his overall body of work is.

Matt,

Reread.  Mike specifically wrote "P.B."  That's Paul Burke Dye, Pete's youngest.  

http://dyedesigns.com/golf/dye-family-2/p-b-dye/

Here's an interesting sentence off Pete Dye's wikipedia article.

Many of the best young golf architects have "pushed dirt" for Pete, including Bill Coore, Tom Doak, John Harbottle, Butch Laporte, Tim Liddy, Scott Poole, David Postlewaite, Lee Schmidt, Keith Sparkman, Jim Urbina, Bobby Weed, Rod Whitman and Abe Wilson.


I casually perused other golf architects' entries on wikipedia, and Mr. Dye's is the only one that even has this much detail about his design apprentices.  I believe this supports my argument that he may in time be remembered for a generation of greatness that he helped along.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 12:11:48 AM by Ben Sims »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2012, 07:11:44 AM »
Wikipedia, Ben?

Isn't what shows up on Wikipedia a function of who writes it and what THEY want it to say?  [Perhaps Abe Wilson wrote it, since I do not know who Abe Wilson is.  Plus, whoever it was didn't know how to spell David Postlethwait's name correctly.]

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2012, 08:24:44 AM »
What is PB Dye's best course?  I played Debordieu last weekend which is a Pete/PB Dye (not sure who really focused more?) and liked it more than on previous playings.  It was good.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2012, 08:37:32 AM »
Well, if Wikipedia says so, I guess the argument's over.  ::)  ;)
H.P.S.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2012, 09:00:41 AM »
PB's Fisher Island 9-hole course off Miami is a decent effort.  To me though all you have to do is look at two courses at the Legends resort in Myrtle, Heathland and Moorland, and draw your own conclusion...
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 09:51:38 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2012, 09:05:12 AM »
Tom and Pat,

Where's Ian Larson when I need him to preach on technology!  You guys can bemoan an online source if you want, but seriously, look it up.  Google "wikipedia accuracy" and you'll find all kinds of studies that show wikipedia to be as accurate--or, conversely, as erroneous--as Encyclopedia Brittanica and other respected information sources.  

Particular to that sentence I quoted above, there were two references linked.  

http://www.floridagolfmagazine.com/FGMwinter2009/PeteDye2008HOF-Induction.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/pete-dye/

All I am saying is that in my opinion, Pete Dye will have a legacy in 100 years that reaches far past his work.  Sand Hills will be much more than just a great golf course.  

Matt Vandelac

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2012, 09:48:13 AM »
Ben-
Your point is taken, he will leave a legacy of being a great mentor. 
His influence in design and construction innovations will cast a much, much longer shadow. 
A whole other thread could be started about the projects he didn't do.  I'm sure he's turned down a large amount of great potential projects (especially overseas and in remote areas) in the past couple decades.         

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2012, 11:24:00 AM »
Matt:

The irony is that the single most important project Pete Dye ever turned down was ... wait for it ...

Sand Hills.

Dick Youngscap felt like he owed Pete to offer him the job, since he wouldn't have been in position to build it if they hadn't done Firethorn together.  But, I think he really wanted Bill and Ben to design it, so he undersold it to Pete when he called to ask him.

I would love to know what that course would have been like.  But, by the same token, I am very happy Sand Hills turned out the way it did.


Ben:

I was only beating up on Wikipedia because it is what it is.  I have no idea who wrote all the stuff on there about me, but just because they chose to emphasize the projects they did [or not talk about my associates] does not mean those are the most important parts of my legacy.  My kids do think it's weird that I have a Wikipedia page ... I guess their friends look at it when they want to tease them.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2012, 12:36:43 PM »
I've played 5 Doak courses now and Beechtree was the clear winner as "worst" of those 5.

I think the important take away of all this is that Mentor/Protege relationships seem to be alive and doing well. I know in my business thats pretty important too and good to see the torch continues to pass.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2012, 01:23:04 PM »
If Tom Doak is still monitoring this thread, I'd like to ask a question about any Pete Dye's specific moment of impact that Tom may be able to recall.  What I mean is to ask if Tom can remember any specific day and setting on a golf construction site where Pete and he had a specific interaction of mentor-apprentice, where Pete did or said something, or directed some specific activity, where Tom had some moment of clear vision or could see his future and what he would take away from that moment?

I'd love to hear if any other architects tuning in here, could similarly account for one of those important, mentor-apprentice moments.  Aren't such moments what legacy and historical impact are made of?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Matt Vandelac

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2012, 02:39:32 PM »
Tom-
I'm sure he would have done it justice.  After seeing what he did with a runway in Kohler you know how much he appreciates a Melvyn-esque site.

It's amusing how many perceptions there are about the guy.  I'm setting up some t-times for our group late in March in Hilton Head and worked hard to get them on a great Dye course none of them have played.  One of the guys commented about the nasty greens contours he 'knows' are inherent with his designs and just as soon not go there.  From super hard tests of golf, to courses you can burn down, to railroad car bridges, to looking out for the forward tees, to angles, to risk-reward, to....agronomic breakthroughs to... Can ANYBODY throw a blanket over the guy and really summarize him?       

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2012, 02:49:51 PM »
If Tom Doak is still monitoring this thread, I'd like to ask a question about any Pete Dye's specific moment of impact that Tom may be able to recall.  What I mean is to ask if Tom can remember any specific day and setting on a golf construction site where Pete and he had a specific interaction of mentor-apprentice, where Pete did or said something, or directed some specific activity, where Tom had some moment of clear vision or could see his future and what he would take away from that moment?

I'd love to hear if any other architects tuning in here, could similarly account for one of those important, mentor-apprentice moments.  Aren't such moments what legacy and historical impact are made of?

RJ:

I think I still remember nearly everything Pete Dye ever said while I was within earshot.  I must have been paying pretty close attention!

It really wasn't all that much [to Pete], but it meant a lot [to me].  A lot of what I remember was during the construction of Long Cove, where I was the lowest man on the totem pole ... a skinny 20-year-old raking sticks and reading the transit while checking slopes on the greens.  I don't know why Pete even bothered to tell me some of the things that he did, because I would not have been voted Most Likely to Succeed on that crew ... by the Dyes, at least.  [Some of the guys who watched my slide shows in the evening might have had a different opinion.]

Anyway, I've written about several [most] of those moments in other places, and it's funny how they have become incorporated into the Pete Dye narrative because I happened to mention them somewhere.  Pete's story about how he kept driving past Palmetto Dunes on his way to Harbour Town, and ultimately decided he needed to go in a different direction, was something he just said to me in passing one day while I was giving him a ride out to #14 or 15.  I'd been on the job two weeks at that point, he certainly wasn't telling me because he thought I would need to find my own direction someday.  But, when I had to think about what kind of golf courses I was going to build when I did go out on my own, I remembered that conversation distinctly and thought that Pete would not be offended that I was doing something different than he'd done.

I try to remember to make time for my interns in the same way, but unfortunately, I succeed for some a lot better than for others.  I don't know why that is, exactly; it really isn't personal, it's just a matter of who is around at the right time for me to be philosophical.  I guess it's just like my posts here, you never know when I'll make a really good one!  ;)

Peter Pallotta

Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2012, 02:50:53 PM »
My thinking is that Mr. Dye will be most remembered for creating the first uniquely American golf course, TPC Sawgrass.  He will be recognized as the architect who most completely transmuted the fundamental principles of golf course design (as found in the great British links course) through the medium of a modern and uniquely American spirit, i.e. an optimistic, bold and even brash spirit, respectful of traditions but not rule-bound, full of natural showmanship and self-confidence, inventive and willing to re-invent, and a friend of the entrepreneur, of technology, and of the big-time.  He will be remembred as the first architect to turn his full attention and talents to the big-money world of televised professional golf.

Peter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2012, 02:53:18 PM »
It's amusing how many perceptions there are about the guy.  I'm setting up some t-times for our group late in March in Hilton Head and worked hard to get them on a great Dye course none of them have played.  One of the guys commented about the nasty greens contours he 'knows' are inherent with his designs and just as soon not go there.  From super hard tests of golf, to courses you can burn down, to railroad car bridges, to looking out for the forward tees, to angles, to risk-reward, to....agronomic breakthroughs to... Can ANYBODY throw a blanket over the guy and really summarize him?       

Matt V:  I feel the same was probably true of MacKenzie, Ross, Tillinghast, even Macdonald.  If you are driven to do great work, you are not easily typecast, and it's sad that magazine editors push golf writers to summarize and stereotype their subjects.  But, it's harder for that to happen with Mr. Dye, because he is still alive and he is like me in that he's determined not to be pigeonholed.  He mentioned to me years ago [when the common stereotype about him was using all the railroad ties] that he actually hadn't used a railroad tie on any of his courses for 4-5 years, but no one had noticed!

Matt Vandelac

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2012, 03:07:24 PM »
Tom-
Absolutely.  Although I've only played Ballyneal (a lot) I know your design philosophy is hard to pin down.  Refreshing!  It will be fun to see you're career when you get long in the tooth and see what labels try to get stuck on you.  One of the most amazing things about Pete when comparing him anybody from classic to modern, is his ability to keep it all (from the contract to the check) without putting anything on paper (much less in stone like some out there).  For him to develop a connection with shapers, etc. that goes from pushing sand with his hands to almost telepathic is amazing. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2012, 03:17:39 PM »
Tom-
Absolutely.  Although I've only played Ballyneal (a lot) I know your design philosophy is hard to pin down.  Refreshing!  It will be fun to see you're career when you get long in the tooth and see what labels try to get stuck on you.  One of the most amazing things about Pete when comparing him anybody from classic to modern, is his ability to keep it all (from the contract to the check) without putting anything on paper (much less in stone like some out there).  For him to develop a connection with shapers, etc. that goes from pushing sand with his hands to almost telepathic is amazing. 

Matt,

As I've gotten older I've become steadily more like Mr. Dye in that respect ... I don't want to put anything on paper at all, because I'm afraid it will be taken too seriously.  Which was another conversation I had with Pete at Long Cove.  I was under the impression that he hadn't done any drawings for the course, and that P.B. was out there winging a lot of ideas while he was shaping.  But, late that summer, Bobby Weed opened his desk drawer and hauled out a legal pad where Pete had done sketches of each of the holes months earlier.  He just didn't want to show it all to anyone.

When I asked Pete about it, he said occasionally he would have a client who pulled out a drawing and asked him why he wasn't building the hole the way he'd drawn it.  He said he was just tired of explaining to them that after spending a few months on site, he had a better idea of what would work, so why would they want him to go back and look at a drawing he'd done months before?

We didn't even have a drawing for Barnbougle Dunes ... I was afraid to give the final routing to Greg Ramsay for fear he would decide to build the course without me, so I never drew it up ... I just took Brian Schneider out to the holes I had staked and showed him where to start building the greens!

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2012, 03:21:30 PM »
When I think of Pete Dye, I think of 1) the Amex commercial 2) the dive into the greenside water at TPC with Beman and Jerry Pate) and 3) the Feature Interview on this site. Not in that order...

I'll second whoever recommended Bury Me In A Pot Bunker, it is a terrific read, both funny and informative.

-----

Tom, in thinking about that Palmetto Dunes story, do you think Pete was driven to simply be different, or that he didn't like the prevailing ideas of the times? Or a bit of both?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2012, 03:21:57 PM »
Matt:

The irony is that the single most important project Pete Dye ever turned down was ... wait for it ...

Sand Hills.

Dick Youngscap felt like he owed Pete to offer him the job, since he wouldn't have been in position to build it if they hadn't done Firethorn together.  But, I think he really wanted Bill and Ben to design it, so he undersold it to Pete when he called to ask him.

I would love to know what that course would have been like.  But, by the same token, I am very happy Sand Hills turned out the way it did.


Ben:

I was only beating up on Wikipedia because it is what it is.  I have no idea who wrote all the stuff on there about me, but just because they chose to emphasize the projects they did [or not talk about my associates] does not mean those are the most important parts of my legacy.  My kids do think it's weird that I have a Wikipedia page ... I guess their friends look at it when they want to tease them.

Tom, if you have some time on your hands, I think you can go on Wikipedia and edit what others have said about you!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: CB Macdonald, The National, Pete Dye, and Sand Hills
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2012, 03:39:30 PM »
Tom, in thinking about that Palmetto Dunes story, do you think Pete was driven to simply be different, or that he didn't like the prevailing ideas of the times? Or a bit of both?

Pete has always said he admired Mr. Jones' work, and if you look at some of his very early courses, like Radrick Farms, you can see the influence of Jones and Dick Wilson.

But what he said about Palmetto Dunes was that he didn't see how golf could KEEP GOING in that direction -- which I took to mean longer and harder and fairer [and especially longer].  And that it didn't make sense to try to take something even further than the other guys were taking it.  He wanted to explore a different way to skin the cat.


P.S. to Bill:  If someone here wants to edit my Wikipedia page, they can go for it.  I would feel very weird trying to write my own biography or trying to control what others think of me.  I am pretty sure Mr. Dye has not worked on his own Wikipedia page, either.

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