[Tom_Doak]

I'm posting to call attention to Brad's nice write-up of Stevens Park GC in Dallas, recently renovated by John Colligan.

It sounds like a very nice project, but there's one thing I don't understand.  If the golf course renovation budget was $4.5 million and the city spent another $3.4 million on the clubhouse, maintenance building, and stream bank stabilization -- then how do they operate it for a peak rate of $31 ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Simple, they studied and followed the financing methods of the U.S. Government.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, The new normal?

For every $1m spent, a $4.90 green fee can be expected.

[Greg Clark]

I'm posting to call attention to Brad's nice write-up of Stevens Park GC in Dallas, recently renovated by John Colligan.

It sounds like a very nice project, but there's one thing I don't understand.  If the golf course renovation budget was $4.5 million and the city spent another $3.4 million on the clubhouse, maintenance building, and stream bank stabilization -- then how do they operate it for a peak rate of $31 ?

I haven't read the article yet, but I believe the $31 is a walking rate.  The cart rate adds another $13, and certainly most are riding.  That being said, while I'm sure the course will do a high number of rounds this year, I too would question whether the bottom line will look all that appealing.  City leadership is certainly commited to beefing up Dallas' munis.  Cedar Crest, Tenison Park, and Stevens Park have all receivied significant face lifts in the last 10 years.  In general, all have been well received locally and they have busy tee sheets.  Would be interesting to see what this is costing the tax payer.

As an aside, John Colligan also did the well received revamp of Brackenridge Park in San Antonio. 

[Ian Andrew]

I wish you could still delete

[RJ_Daley]

My take is that particularly in these highly politically charged times, there are plenty of eyes reviewing the numbers from the wide spectrum of those that do not believe muni's should provide this sort of recreational facility and private golf enterprises are the only legit manner of golf development, to those that believe it is a proper function of local governments to provide good recreational opportunities at affordable prices, and a legit public expenditure.  I have to believe that the amount spent was scrutinized and justified.  We don't know any of the specifics, like rounds played, operating profit and loss and debt service on the capital improvements, etc. etc.  But, I doubt any one entity got the expenditures or funding for these upgrades approved without a process and consensus of support. 

In my region of the country, I don't think there is a municiple, county or state golf facility that doesn't 'return' money to their local unit treasuries.  We here in my county, built a brand new club house, yet have never failed to return money to the county treasury in the two decades I have been observing as a local resident and facility user. 

So, I say, let Dallas be Dallas and chart their own course and justify their own priorities.  With all the conservatives down there, I can't imagine they are not scrutinized to a fair-thee-well, and can demonstrate need and ability to fund the project.

[Carl Johnson]

A couple of quotes from Brad's article I found interesting. (1) "[John] Colligan [the course redesigner] is an advocate of low-scale, 'brown is the new green' turf and water management.  At Stevens Park, however, he gave way to an ambitious landscape scheme by director of golf James Henderson that has turned the golf course into a garden park. . . . Henderson . . . [is] also a skilled gardner with a private landscape practice . . . [and] has selected the palette of crepe myrtle, nandina, magnolia and red and white rose beds that give the course a lustrous glow." [Emphasis added]  (2) In his "Walk in the Park" test paragraph Klein adds, in part: "It's an enjoyable stroll through the garden rooms of an intensively cultivated parkland site."

[Jeff_Brauer]

I could be wrong, but the City probably got many corporate donations to assist in funding the project.  At least that was their intent at one time.  Also, some of the funding may have been tied to extending an effluent line as well as the erosion control, and might have been paid others ways that don't need to reflect in the cost of a round of golf.

Congrats to John and Trey Kemp on a nice project.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

Thanks.  That would make a lot more sense, if there were a lot of donations to the cause.


RJ:

You really trust governments to do everything right?

My question wasn't whether the numbers on the project would work or not -- it just re-opened, so the jury is still out on that score.  I just wondered how they were supposed to work, since they were much different than the standards I have learned to live with -- I wanted to know how to make a project like that work.  Jeff has most likely supplied the answer.

[RJ_Daley]

Tom, do I trust governments to do 'everything right'?  No, not necessarily.  In fact, no matter what governments do, someone will say they didn't do it right. I do advocate that governments should be transparent in their operations, and full public right to know what they do, and debate it, then vote.  As Jeff points out or indicates, a process took place.  As I mentioned above, I have to believe in a conservative area like Dallas, along with all the popular anti-government notions spouted out there with sentiments that readily insinuate that we should not 'trust government to do everything right' and that they won't; those forces scrutinized decisions made to renovate that course, and will continue to scrutinize its operations.

I have not stats to prove it, but I might lean towards a notion that local governments that provide the recreational facility of golf to its citizens, do so at more affordable rates to participate for all their citizens, than the private golf scene provides, either affordable or successful on-going operations.  So then it becomes a question of if the citizen taxpayers are subsidizing on-going operations in their muni golf courses, and if that is a  public policy that is agreeable to incur those expenses for the benefit of the quality of life in the community; or if they break even or actually return money to their local treasury, if that is a good public policy to maintain, or privatize everything, and let those who can afford that scene play and exclude those that can't afford it.   I know where I come down, on the progressive side that such recreation is quality of life benefits to communities.  So, I'd support or encourage and 'trust' a project like Dallas's STevens Park, right up until the point where it would be clearly shown it is a detriment to the community, which we should be able to know via transparent government.

[Sam Morrow]

All I know is that I've heard very good things about the work there and look forward to seeing the new course.

[Bill_McBride]

I have no idea how to post it, but I think the aerial currently on Google Maps (search "Stevens Park Golf, Dallas, TX) shows the course under construction. 

[Carl Rogers]

Tom & JC,
As a collary to this project, Common Ground ... How is that working out?  too early to tell?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I do hope the other projects and needs were part of that cost number. Otherwise it does not and will not make sense. I really feel like in the long term this is bad for golf. I am frankly tired of every government project costing several times what it should, even by government standards, and then performing at half or less the expectation, again even by government standards.

[David_Elvins]

Tom,

I'll try using the math I know from here.

Assume 40,000 rounds (that's standard for our munis in Toronto).
Assume aveage round rate of 25 (your $15 below us!)
Course generate $1,000,000. per year
Assume clubhouse is an even sum.
Maintenance is $750,000.
Generates $250,000. per year
Total Cost was essentially $8,000,000.
which is 32 years to get a return on the investment....

For perspective:

Our city just funded a major arena to replace one that was almost 50 years old.
The cost was $50 million
The average sheet of ice is $200. and they rent on average 250 sheets of ice a week
That's $50,000 a week
Hockey runs generally nine months and partial for the remainder.
That's essentially $500,000 a year.[\b]
Overhead runs around $300,000. (much of this is a guess)
That's about $200,000 a year clear
That works out to 250 years to get a return on the investment

I get your point and I'm hard pressed to relate to those numbers when my average renovation comes in around 1 million.

But I've always been amuzed by the over-funding of hockey in Canada - no other sport enjoys the same level of support. I think it's crazy and I'm in that arena three times a week to play.

Ian,

$50,000 a week ain't $500,000 a year.  Close to $2million a year.  

Besides, when you factor in the importance of a successful Canadian hockey team to the national psych and national economy, spending at a grass roots level would be paid back in spades.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom & JC,
As a collary to this project, Common Ground ... How is that working out?  too early to tell?

Carl:

I see the numbers on Common Ground every year.  So far, it's doing fine, running in the black, although it gets back close to even after depreciation, taxes, etc.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I get your point and I'm hard pressed to relate to those numbers when my average renovation comes in around 1 million.

I have to believe that the amount spent was scrutinized and justified. 

RJ
How would the city's amount be justified in light of Ian's statement?
How would the city do if they had Ian scrutinize the amount?
Cheers

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, on first impression, I'd have to observe that Ian's frame of reference is totally different than a citizen of Dallas and user of golf facilities there.  Heck, for one thing, Ian is a Canuck! 

But seriously, I think the only scrutiny can occur in the local government working and documentations, based on that process, and no other's experience.  While one can look generally at how other such muni funded projects turned out historically, the merits of Stevens Park data has to stand and be scrutinized on its own, IMHO.

Ideally, that ultimate decision to proceed to remodel or to what scope and standard, could be put on a referendum like many schoool bonds.  But, we can't put every single expenditure up on referendums, and thus perhaps the remodeling of a long standing golf publicly owned facility may be as well handled by the mechanisms in place for council committees, commissions and council votes, up or down. Of course with citizen review and input at hearings and with government transparency to aid the process.

A good ethical question might be if an architect looking for work, had a crack at a municipal project, with a budget that their own previous experience in the field of GCA and bidding and construction process indicated to them, that the project could not stand the test of sufficient income-revenue to support ongoing operations at such costs; should that archie disclose that observation based on prior experience and withdraw from bidding for said project?

I'd be good with giving Ian or you all the pertinent facts, including 'other funding donation sources' as Jeff eluded to, and all the proforma data and let you scrutinize it, and exercise your right (if you were Dallas effected residents) to support or resist the proposition, and to do so as expert commentators. 

[Ian Andrew]

nle

[Jim_Kennedy]

http://www.dallascityhall.com/Budget/adopted_1112/AdoptedFY12_culture-arts-recreation.pdf

"Program areas include 6 18-hole golf courses, 5 tennis centers, 2 gun ranges, outdoor fitness programs, a greenhouse and numerous
concession services on parks. This service includes staffing and management for 7 day/week professional grounds maintenance of the golf courses and administers all of the contracts for these services."

On page 9 - It looks like Dallas' budget allocates $5,693,664 for all of the above services that it provides for its citizens, which includes 72.4 Full Time Equivalent workers. Revenues from those operations were $2,686,442.00, leaving a deficit of $3,007,222. The population is 2,377,351, so it looks like each citizen of Dallas pays $1.25 in taxes per year to have six 18-hole golf courses, 5 tennis centers, 2 gun ranges, outdoor fitness programs, a greenhouse, numerous concession services in the parks, includes staffing and management for 7 days a week.

Sounds like a bargain, even if you don't use any of them.  

[Randy Thompson]

My first job out of college was superintendent at Meadowbrook for the city of Fort Worth. We got a 10 cent a round incentive benefit. We did 67,000 rounds, I imagine the Dallas muni do close to the same. Thirty bucks a round, 2 million in green fee income alone, no one guarantees the price will stay in that range. But it could,,,muniīs donīt need to make money, just not suck to much out of city budgets. Break even is a good objective.

[Sam Morrow]

My first job out of college was superintendent at Meadowbrook for the city of Fort Worth. We got a 10 cent a round incentive benefit. We did 67,000 rounds, I imagine the Dallas muni do close to the same. Thirty bucks a round, 2 million in green fee income alone, no one guarantees the price will stay in that range. But it could,,,muniīs donīt need to make money, just not suck to much out of city budgets. Break even is a good objective.

I've never played Meadowbrook, where in town is it and is it any good?

[Mike Nuzzo]

RJ
Were you a politician or a police officer or both? 

I like Jim's math - thank you.
But I'm sure everyone in Dallas would rather have paid $1 vs. $2 to improve the golf course.
Cheers

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
A cursory search about the funding revealed two bond issues and a loan from the sewer authority,  the entity that will be providing the course with all its irrigation water.



 

[Randy Thompson]

My first job out of college was superintendent at Meadowbrook for the city of Fort Worth. We got a 10 cent a round incentive benefit. We did 67,000 rounds, I imagine the Dallas muni do close to the same. Thirty bucks a round, 2 million in green fee income alone, no one guarantees the price will stay in that range. But it could,,,muniīs donīt need to make money, just not suck to much out of city budgets. Break even is a good objective.

I've never played Meadowbrook, where in town is it and is it any good?

Sam,
Its on the other side of 30 from Woodhaven Country club, if you know where that is, on the east side of town. Brentwoodstair exit or oakland! Its by far the best design in the Ft, worth muniīs. got some elevation changes and tight. Have not been there in 30 years, so not sure about the conditions but most locals should agree the better design of the five courses they have or had.

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