[Bryan Lewis]

I never had the chance to play High Pointe, and am very sad I didn't.  Seems like the most logical thing would be for Grand Traverse or another resort to buy it.  They would have the funds to put into a restoration.

[Tom_Doak]

I never had the chance to play High Pointe, and am very sad I didn't.  Seems like the most logical thing would be for Grand Traverse or another resort to buy it.  They would have the funds to put into a restoration.

That will never happen.  The course's best chance was a few years ago, BEFORE the resort decided to build a third course they didn't really need, at full retail price.  If High Pointe had found a way to work with the resort (or sell to them), it would still be operating.  But no way the resort is going to save a neighbor when their own courses aren't full.

[Bryan Lewis]

I never had the chance to play High Pointe, and am very sad I didn't.  Seems like the most logical thing would be for Grand Traverse or another resort to buy it.  They would have the funds to put into a restoration.

That will never happen.  The course's best chance was a few years ago, BEFORE the resort decided to build a third course they didn't really need, at full retail price.  If High Pointe had found a way to work with the resort (or sell to them), it would still be operating.  But no way the resort is going to save a neighbor when their own courses aren't full.

Tom,

You are probably right.  If you were given the chance to restore High Pointe, what changes would you make if any?  Or wouldn't it be worth it?

Bryan

[Robin_Hiseman]

I've enjoyed reading this thread and learning about Tom's first solo job.  Missed it the first time around and it's been very enlightening.  It's very sad to see a lovely course fall fallow and a look at the recent Google Earth image really shows just how derelict it has become.  The one good thing is that there exists a very good photographic record of the course, so I really hope that one day Tom will get to resurrect it.

Tom, has it ever passed your mind to take it on, either yourself or through a consortium?  Is it a question of waiting for the right price, or do you think that to bring it back would be financially out of the question?  Surely all golf architects want to do a Pat Ruddy at some point in their career?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tom, has it ever passed your mind to take it on, either yourself or through a consortium?  Is it a question of waiting for the right price, or do you think that to bring it back would be financially out of the question?  Surely all golf architects want to do a Pat Ruddy at some point in their career?

I think most of us, architect or not, would like to do a Pat Ruddy.  I have been designing a course since I was in high school.  I almost didn't pass Latin because I kept working on the tenth hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, has it ever passed your mind to take it on, either yourself or through a consortium?  Is it a question of waiting for the right price, or do you think that to bring it back would be financially out of the question?  Surely all golf architects want to do a Pat Ruddy at some point in their career?

Robin:

I think about it every year.  It is still a special place to me, but I recognize it is not true for enough others that it would be assured to succeed.  And, realistically, if you are going to own and operate a golf course yourself, Traverse City probably isn't the smartest place to own one.

I came close to making an offer the year the course closed, and sometimes wish that I had done so while it wouldn't have been so difficult to put back together.  A few of my clients even offered to put up some money to help.  But, I realized that as long as I have my day job and all the responsibilities that go with it, the last thing I needed when I got home from every trip was to have to worry about what was going on out at High Pointe.  I needed to spend that energy on my family, and I've been trying to honor that.

My wife was an art major, and she is the one who explained to me that real art is about the creative process, not the piece of work itself.

I do think that ten years from now I'll be semi-retired and running a course of my own design.  It's possible that it will be High Pointe, after all.  But it might be somewhere else, instead.

[Kyle Harris]

My wife was an art major, and she is the one who explained to me that real art is about the creative process, not the piece of work itself.

Preserving this for posterity.

[Josh Tarble]

Tom,
This is purely hypothetical, but if you were to start operating a course would you rather renovate High Pointe and bring it back up to speed or choose a new site and start from scratch?

If you were going back to High Pointe, are there any updates to the physical design you would make?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
This is purely hypothetical, but if you were to start operating a course would you rather renovate High Pointe and bring it back up to speed or choose a new site and start from scratch?

If you were going back to High Pointe, are there any updates to the physical design you would make?

Josh:

I don't spend a lot of time on hypotheticals, I prefer to work on what's in front of me.  Generally, the answer to your question is that I would rather create something new than just try to fix something that's been broken.  High Pointe is the rare course for which I might make an exception, because there was some really cool stuff there.

If I did go back, the answer to your second question is a difficult one.  Part of me would want to preserve my original work ... even though most people would argue that I should just make the course as good as I know how to, today.  Part of me would want to fix some things that I got wrong originally -- opening up the back nine, for sure, though it would be hard to do as effectively now.  And I'd be sorely tempted to find a better solution to the 18th hole, though I think the only real solution is to abandon it and find a different location.  But I don't know that I would want to "fix" the bunkers and the greens that I wasn't so happy with.

[Josh Tarble]

Thanks for the reply, Tom.  I know it doesn't make sense to deal with hypotheticals, but I've found the background and story of High Pointe to be incredibly fascinating.  I'm sure its a much more personal subject for you, though I'm guessing you and your company have found many key learnings from it.

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen,
I too have been fascinated by this thread since its inception what with Tom D's creation, involvement and intimate knowledge of the course. For me the main message is that it pays not to be an incurable romantic as I am. If Tom  of all people, who has observed the course from cradle to grave, deems it unwise at the present to re-enter the fray then it must be next to impossible to make way in this buisness. I have been very much educated by this thread as I naively thought that once a course was in existence even if it fell on hard times it could be easily resurrected. The thread sadly points out how cruel the real world of golf course management, architecture and maintenance must be. So thanks to all you architects, managers and turf-bods who keep on greenkeeping on!

Cheers Colin

[Jim Sherma]

Gentlemen,
I too have been fascinated by this thread since its inception what with Tom D's creation, involvement and intimate knowledge of the course. For me the main message is that it pays not to be an incurable romantic as I am. If Tom  of all people, who has observed the course from cradle to grave, deems it unwise at the present to re-enter the fray then it must be next to impossible to make way in this buisness. I have been very much educated by this thread as I naively thought that once a course was in existence even if it fell on hard times it could be easily resurrected. The thread sadly points out how cruel the real world of golf course management, architecture and maintenance must be. So thanks to all you architects, managers and turf-bods who keep on greenkeeping on!

Cheers Colin

Makes me really respect the clubs/organizations that act as good stewards of the great fields that we are lucky enough to play on. Great architecture is like a great band in many ways. Unless a business model is built around it that works it will just fade away. And if a business model requires some dilution of quirks or other aspects of greatness, then the question of the lesser of two evils must be addressed if it is to survive in some form.

[Tom_Doak]

Gentlemen,
I too have been fascinated by this thread since its inception what with Tom D's creation, involvement and intimate knowledge of the course. For me the main message is that it pays not to be an incurable romantic as I am. If Tom  of all people, who has observed the course from cradle to grave, deems it unwise at the present to re-enter the fray then it must be next to impossible to make way in this buisness. I have been very much educated by this thread as I naively thought that once a course was in existence even if it fell on hard times it could be easily resurrected. The thread sadly points out how cruel the real world of golf course management, architecture and maintenance must be. So thanks to all you architects, managers and turf-bods who keep on greenkeeping on!

Cheers Colin

Makes me really respect the clubs/organizations that act as good stewards of the great fields that we are lucky enough to play on. Great architecture is like a great band in many ways. Unless a business model is built around it that works it will just fade away. And if a business model requires some dilution of quirks or other aspects of greatness, then the question of the lesser of two evils must be addressed if it is to survive in some form.

Jim:

I think the failure of their "business model" is a bit overrated [although it's hard to succeed when you never have one at all ].  For me, the failure was due to consistency of management.  They had some good people in charge over the years, but they could never get them to stay very long ... and if you don't have regular employees you aren't going to get many regular customers, either.

[Mike Schott]

 Hi Tom.

Do you think there's a viable business model for someone to buy High Pointe, restore the course and make it profitable? I believe that NW Michigan golf is still hurting from the recession and particularly it's effect on Michigan but High Pointe is a bit unique in being independent of a resort and has the lineage of being a Doak course which is a point worthy of exploitation.

Personally I'd get up there are few times a year with friends.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Not Tom, but my thoughts on a viable business model for a course like High Pointe.
HP is probably an ideal course for a mom and pop type business. Sort of like a family restaurant where pop is the chef and mom is the dining room manager, a golf course like HP could be maintained with a small crew, and if the house is properly configured the front of the operation could be operated efficiently as well.
The problem with this scenario is mom and pop can't afford to buy and resurrect the course and there isn't enough $$$ to pay them AND the investors they need to buy the property. Courses like HP can provide an owner/operator with a good living, if that owner/operator can ever find a way to actually purchase the property. Best solution is probably a lease, but the property owner usually wants to much for the lease (even though the business is losing money), or a share of the profits once you put in all the time and money to pull off the turnaround. And the lessee is usually unwilling to make any needed capital improvements without an iron clad long term lease that will allow him to reap the rewards of his hard work. 

[Adam_Messix]

Tom Doak--

You are so right about having stability in management and in terms of having regular customers.  It's hard to believe that an area like Traverse City with a reasonable amount of seasonal traffic and tourist visits wouldn't have room for an efficiently maintained High Point.  The idea of a Mom and Pop type operation is tough unless you get someone who's really multi talented to run it and the typical customer is willing to handle less service. 

I agree with Don Mahaffey that the biggest barrier to reopening the course would be putting back in reasonable playing condition and the longer it stays out, the harder it is to put back unless there's been some kind of maintenance.  I recently saw a course that was closed about a year and was shocked to see that outside of seeing the playing corridors the course had totally grown over.  A maintenance model like what you guys do at Wolf Point would make operating costs reasonable, but the restart costs would be a killer. 

I hope someone could make it work because the course is excellent.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am amazed how quickly a course can go o pot.  I was in Maui this summer and saw the second course at Makena.  It has been closed for a few years and was hardly recognizable as a course.  Getting it back into shape would require a lot of time and money.

[Steve Lang]

   Adding insult to injury... they're growing corn at Highpointe on the front nine... we're going to get out with the jeep to see the back and get some better pics








played it every year it was open, usually multiple times.. 

at least Black Forest is still open...

[Andrew Buck]

Tom, you've touched on this a bit here and there.  But if you would, please take some time to tell us some of the key learning points that High Pointe taught you.

tion superintendent, Tom Mead ... but if I'd had someone who knew how to build cool bunkers, it would have been better.

6.  Try to anticipate the growth of trees over 10-20 years.  Then take out twice as many trees as you think you need to.  The growth is exponentially more than you imagine.

It is unbelievable how hard this is without both experience and the 20 years of hindsight.  I'm thinking more on the planting side, but now I see it everywhere, including non-golf environments.

[Kalen Braley]

Thought I'd bump this given the highpointe discussion...I had forgot I posted a few photos for Tom back in 2012.

For the most comprehensive look, go to page 3 of this thread where Tim Bert posted a bunch of pics of every hole.

Enjoy!!

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