[Garland Bayley]

Alex Miller's comment about knowing Pebble Beach as a very young buck from video games got me thinking.

Are we little travelled old foggies at a disadvantage in golf architecture knowledge as compared to these young kids, due to this cultural aspect?

I marvel at Alex's sense for golf architecture at such a young age.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Garland,

You may get a good sense of the general layout of famous courses, and the overall look and design of the holes playing a video game. But I think you get a worse sense of golf architecture from video games; mainly because the player you're controlling in the game is usually too good... hitting way too many fairways and greens to truly allow for comprehensive understanding of the workings of such courses. Moreover, you're not experiencing the entirety of the scene playing a video game; or that 'sense of place' that's such a very important part of so many of the great courses of the world.  

[Alex Miller]

Alex Miller's comment about knowing Pebble Beach as a very young buck from video games got me thinking.

Are we little travelled old foggies at a disadvantage in golf architecture knowledge as compared to these young kids, due to this cultural aspect?

I marvel at Alex's sense for golf architecture at such a young age.

Thanks Garland, though unless you knew that's what it was (and no one really did) you probably would've just thought I was weirdly obsessed with golf and that I had some sort of artistic autism in that I only doodled golf courses.   By the way, I knew Pebble from pictures and stuff too, and actually the course in the video game was called Sterling Shores. Only after some realizations about how the scorecard and course matched up to Pebble did I realize that was what they were going for. The game also had TPC at Avenal, TPC Sawgrass, and PGA West Stadium!


Concerning your question: No, I don't think you're at a disadvantage, but video games can highlight the good and bad in GCA. For instance, Torrey Pines and Doral are some of the worst courses to play in video games and are unsurprisingly boring visually and strategically as they are in real life. TPC Sawgrass, Pebble, Bethpage Black, Oakmont (on WGT.com) are all much more interesting and even my friends who don't know a thing about GCA would agree with me on those.

What takes the cake though is ANGC. In the Tiger Woods '12 game on the wii, it's pretty spectacular. Visually it's the best golf game I've seen, but also the greens are so bold and complex that the challenge of scoring well there also makes it a superior course to play.

Finally, sometimes it's the completely fictional courses that are the best. I could look up pictures, videos, aerials, etc... for the courses above but courses like the Tiger Woods franchise's "The Predator", "Emerald Dragon", "Scottish Highlands", and "Central Park" (my favorite) are only accessible via the video game and are also made to provide appropriate levels of challenge. I don't know if they highlight any good GCA, but they are certainly interesting and entertaining.

[Melvyn Morrow]

If a golfer plays his local course year upon year and does not even understand the first thing about GCA, what makes you think that by playing a repetitive computer game things will change. The problem is that many don’t understand golf, let alone GCA or what it even means.

[Garland Bayley]

If a golfer plays his local course year upon year and does not even understand the first thing about GCA, what makes you think that by playing a repetitive computer game things will change. The problem is that many don’t understand golf, let alone GCA or what it even means.

Melvyn,

The video games allow them to "play" (at least see many times) the great courses of the world. I may see photo threads from time to time, and I may see the course on TV from time to time, but I would imaging Alex has seen Augusta National more times on the video game than I could if I were to watch every broadcast of the Masters ever recorded.

[Alex Miller]

If a golfer plays his local course year upon year and does not even understand the first thing about GCA, what makes you think that by playing a repetitive computer game things will change. The problem is that many don’t understand golf, let alone GCA or what it even means.

Melvyn,

The video games allow them to "play" (at least see many times) the great courses of the world. I may see photo threads from time to time, and I may see the course on TV from time to time, but I would imaging Alex has seen Augusta National more times on the video game than I could if I were to watch every broadcast of the Masters ever recorded.

I've only played the video game version of Augusta about 7 or 8 times. I don't own it but a friend does.

Another video game related thread http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43467.0.html

[Melvyn Morrow]

Garland

Is seeing believing, I wish it was, but the truth is surely they do not see let alone notice. The modern game does not teach players how to understand GCA. That comes from within or if lucky from a friend who takes his time explaining just what constitutes as a good golf course, otherwise a course is just that a course.

Today a course is just the road to the pin nothing more, unless someone takes the time to explain the pros & Cons of the game, hopefully some will learn it from friends or from better golfers, but until that GCA is for many just the road to the pin, so no point in getting excited.

[Garland Bayley]

... That comes from within ...

Exactly! My point is I believe Alex has that "within", and his absorption of GCA qualities advanced at a far faster rate than they did with me. Either he's way smarter than me, which of course is next to impossible , or he has a stimulus that I don't have that aids him.

[jeffwarne]

Unless one can execute even the most rudimentary shot intended, and has some feel for how far a ball goes,
strategy or understanding of architecture has little or no meaning.

Since a player can become somewhat adept quite quickly at a video game, but not as soon at golf, sure, a video game could help them to understand strategy.

Most recently, I think my son(who actually hits a golf ball quite well) began to grasp strategy and even architecture to some degree while we were repeatedly playing mini golf on a pretty well designed 9 hole course, because he could see the hole in its' entirety, and weigh the risks and rewards of a particular approach,as well as benefit from repeated plays.
he made several comments about the design merits (or lack thereof) on several holes.

[Brett Hochstein]

I think video games as a whole give one better patience and control in getting the hang of the machinery that builds architecture, especially an excavator. 

The Tiger Woods games were cool for me to get an understanding of hole layout, but I always kept in mind that the playing interface was unrealistic and that the real details of the course were lacking.  I would play with the lowest player ratings at St Andrews with all the speeds at max, and I still knew it wasn't playing the same even without ever having seen a links at that point.  The hole layouts are good, but not too much more than that that is really useful. 

[Garland Bayley]

Just found out how I can catch up with Alex. NPR just had a story that old foggies like me that began to play video games became significantly smarter. In particular, the study used "World of Warcraft" as the test video game to improve cognition in old foggies.

Now one question. What's World of Warcraft?

[Tim Gavrich]

Playing the Links series of computer golf games absolutely contributed to my interest in GCA.  I always enjoyed designing golf courses on Jack Nicklaus 4, another computer game.  I never could figure out the Arnold Palmer Course Designer on the later Links games, but I downloaded a bunch of courses that others had designed for popular consumption, and some of them were excellent replicas of real-life courses.

[Alex Miller]

Playing the Links series of computer golf games absolutely contributed to my interest in GCA.  I always enjoyed designing golf courses on Jack Nicklaus 4, another computer game.  I never could figure out the Arnold Palmer Course Designer on the later Links games, but I downloaded a bunch of courses that others had designed for popular consumption, and some of them were excellent replicas of real-life courses.

Agreed! Can't believe I forgot about those! I also had the same problem with the Links games, but the Jack Nicklaus 4 was pretty good.

Sid Meier's Sim Golf was pretty good too, even if it wasn't very realistic. Since you could only design in 25X25 yard squares every course ended up looking vaguely Raynor-esque 

[Kyle Harris]

If a golfer plays his local course year upon year and does not even understand the first thing about GCA, what makes you think that by playing a repetitive computer game things will change. The problem is that many don’t understand golf, let alone GCA or what it even means.

I think Melvyn hits the nail squarely and firmly on the head, here.

[Jim Colton]

Back in the day, I did a Links golf version of Blackwolf Run River. Above, the 16th hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim Colton:

You are going for that green from 260 yards out, off a downhill lie.  With a three-wood?  That's highly realistic!  

Where is Ian Larson to tell me what an old timer I am for not quite buying into this thread?

P.S. to Jim:  You drew up the course yourself?  And you PUT IN THE CART PATHS?

[Matthew Hunt]

St Andrews and Bethpage were always the two best courses on the Tiger Woods games. I also remember one of the desert courses being good. Pebble Beach always stood out for combining great holes like 4, 8, 14 and 18 with some awful ones like 1 and 3. Disclaimer: Have not played it in 'real life'

[Jim Colton]

Jim Colton:

You are going for that green from 260 yards out, off a downhill lie.  With a three-wood?  That's highly realistic!  

Where is Ian Larson to tell me what an old timer I am for not quite buying into this thread?

P.S. to Jim:  You drew up the course yourself?  And you PUT IN THE CART PATHS?

Tom, are you really that surprised on either front? I've hit that exact shot over the green once with 3W and birdied from the back bunker (tripled #17 right after that). Actually this picture is from a clean-up that somebody did from my original file, which dates back to pre-2002 (amazingly, once I had kids, my time for texture mapping for Links golf went down dramatically). But I had cart paths as well. I had kicked around the idea of trying to build Ballyneal for Links golf just so I'd have something to do during the offseason, and even had Placek's routing sketch mapped over a crude Digital Elevation Map. But I just didn't have the time to get it right. It might be easier now that there are finally updated satellite images:

http://binged.it/vZJG3I

Microsoft Links golf still has a cult following with some amazing fictional (GCAer Mike Jones is the best I've seen) and real courses still being built (at least last time I looked last year). Here's a pic of #17 at Shinnecock:

[Garland Bayley]

If a golfer plays his local course year upon year and does not even understand the first thing about GCA, what makes you think that by playing a repetitive computer game things will change. The problem is that many don’t understand golf, let alone GCA or what it even means.

I think Melvyn hits the nail squarely and firmly on the head, here.

Seems to me that these "kids" that have a feeling for GCA are seeing some of the greatest courses over and over again, with the knowledge to know and see why they are great. And, know we find not only that they have been drawing, building, designing, etc. courses on these games too. I believe they certainly have an advantage over me.

So Kyle, are you reaching a stag in life where you need to start playing a little World of Warcraft?

[Howard Riefs]

Back in the day, I did a Links golf version of Blackwolf Run River. Above, the 16th hole.

Is that an orange U of I hat?

More importantly: Why are you on the wrong side of the ball?

[Matthew Rose]

Well, for me it's the only chance I get to play most of these courses

Actually, I spent a lot of my 20s tinkering with these computer designers. I always had ambitions of going into GCA as a profession, but I never followed through on it. So these programs were a great outlet for me personally to get those ideas out of my system.... I was a Jack 5 and GBC enthusiast before the Links designer came out. I've used that exclusively ever since, although I've never gotten the hang of it quite like some of these other guys. I think the learning curve is just so steep.... I wish stuff like the seam blending was so much easier and faster. Some of the processes required to get a really professional looking course are extremely tedious.

If you want to know how GCA.com has influenced my computer design skills, well, the course I'm doing right now has a Redan and a Biarritz!

[Melvyn Morrow]

I still say ‘Is seeing Believing’ or perhaps more appropriately the old sayings really covers this better “Can’t see the Woods for the Trees” or “You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink”.

GCA is more like an acquired taste, yet perhaps if clubs had putting courses like ‘The Himalayas’ instead of flat Billiard ball   
like tables we might just start to get players to understanding, then again people do not always understand what is staring them in the face.

Matthew, ask people what they see in your game pictures and GCA will come way down the list, because seeing trees and paths does not constitutes understanding let alone knowing the meaning of GCA.

[Neil White]

All,

I believe that video games have allowed access to courses that as Matthew has stated 'would never get the chance to play'.

The question whether it gives them a better sense for architecture? Hmm.....

Previous gaming incarnations were developed with a computer designers interpretation of how a course lay - and some of these were very accomplished - I used to marvel at courses, both real and fictitious, created by Brian Silvernail ( www.silvernail-design.com/golf.htm ) and downloaded a few of his 'real' courses to play on various formats.

The problem was though that these were, in the majority, just a copy using aerial photos and photos.  Accuracy was limited to the games capabilities, both in presentation and ball physics, and also the skill / patience of the designer.

Melvyn suggests that 'seeing is believing' and this most probably is true but given the advancements in 3D mapping / modelling the courses used in EA Sports Tiger Woods means that they are getting as close as with regards to every facet of the courses design, the only downside is that, as in today's modern game, the players capabilities overshadow the design.

Another issue is the roster of courses represented in the game, with only a few of any real architectural merit available ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Woods_PGA_Tour_12 ) that said I have wiled away many an hour 'virtually' wandering courses like TOC, Royal Melbourne, Pebble Beach and Augusta.  Whether this time spent will have any benefit should I ever get the opportunity to play these courses is doubtful however I would say that my understanding of these courses has increased through the use of their video reincarnation.

FWIW - I remember reading a story about F1 drivers learning tracks using a video game, especially those tracks new to the racing rota.

Neil.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm still a skeptic on this topic.  Video games have been around for quite a while now -- I remember putting a version of High Pointe on an older system twenty years ago.  I'm sure there are many guys working in architect's offices who have a lot of experience with the video games and computer graphics.  To date, though, I've yet to hear an ACTUAL architect expound on how the video games have expanded his knowledge, even to the extent that I've said how reading The World Atlas of Golf expanded my knowledge.  It's just all speculation from guys who AREN'T actual architects, on how good it would make them.

The other thing is, I had seen a lot of golf courses by the time I was 20 ... but I know I started learning a lot more from seeing them after I'd spent one summer in golf course construction, so I had a better understanding of what I should be looking for.

[Matthew Rose]

I'm certainty not of the pretense that I'd automatically be any good at this just because I can do it on my computer. You have an unlimited budget, unlimited space, no need to worry about bureaucracy, housing developers, environmental issues, drainage, etc.

Melvyn reminded me of something funny. Why do we put cart paths on these computer courses? I realize I've been doing it too.

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