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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sand Valley, Poland, Tony Ristola with Lassi Tilander
« on: February 25, 2012, 12:39:12 PM »
After looking at Tony Ristola's contribution to the Riviera 10th hole discussion, and looking at links to the course he and Tilander designed and built in Poland, I thought it was worth a separate thread.  It seems like Tony has built a bit of Pine Valley in Poland...  ;)  From aerials and limited photos, it looks like a darn nice course.  Take a look:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=14-400+Paslek,+Poland&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=54.07606,19.632268&spn=0.009442,0.023389&hnear=Pas%C5%82%C4%99k,+Elbl%C4%85g+County,+Warmian-Masurian+Voivodeship,+Poland&t=h&z=15

http://www.sandvalley.pl/en/course-tour/

http://www.sandvalley.pl/en/course-guide/

Anyone here play this Polish offering?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley, Poland, Tony Ristola with Lassi Tilander
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2012, 03:42:57 PM »
Rj This is a great idea. I think the course picture look pretty cool to. I think this is near the part of Poland with many lakes and rolling land. It is a popular area during the short summer they have.  I will say the prices are very high for this part of Europe. 350 plus euros is a lot of lotties. The cost of living in Poland is amazing close to the USA. Ie much less than England, France, Germany and most of the rest of Northern Europe. I am not sure how many Americans know how poor we have become, via the weak dollar policy of the last decade,  compared to much of the industrialized world.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley, Poland, Tony Ristola with Lassi Tilander
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2012, 01:48:20 AM »
Interesting comparisons, John.  But, I'd modify some of that to say, most don't realize how much poorer about 95% of Americans are getting relative to many other countries.  The top 5%, not so much, "poorer".

Lech Walesa was here and I and some public employee union leaders got to chat with him casually after his speech over coffee and kalatchkis (sp?).  He said he liked to go trout fishing near there, and pointed to what I think was that area on a map of Poland that happened to be up in that room.  So, it must be a nice recreational area.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley, Poland, Tony Ristola with Lassi Tilander
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2012, 04:45:19 AM »
Maybe I am looking at the wrong info, but I take it a round costs ~$50 (weekday) and two nights/two games costs ~$270.  If you think the course looks interesting I would think the prices seem quite reasonable.   

Tony

Can you tell us more about the course?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley, Poland, Tony Ristola with Lassi Tilander
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2012, 05:58:09 AM »
Photo of 16.


I'll get back with info about the hole... and course.

For the record... I took over from Tilander after he had 10-months with a golf course builder and things went badly... otherwise I would never have set foot on the property. When the machines rolled onto the property on Month 11 I never communicated with the guy personally about the project during the following 18-months, by email, fax, sms, smoke signals or telepathically... not a single word was exchanged. His greens, strategy, grading plans were filed in the trash, as were his construction specs... which I rewrote to take advantage of the great on-site gift... angular river sand. His pot bunker style and collection was tossed, and replaced with flash faced bunkering. His basic routing was used.

Having spent over 18-months in the field leading/working with locals (most had never seen a golf course before), and working 6.5 days a week... between 65 and 110-hour weeks... more than 5000 hours total... shaping all greens and fairways (sans plans), and a number of bunkers, and detailing the bunkers personally during grow-in over 45-days... I do not consider him co-architect by any stretch of the imagination. Had he participated in the process, even superficially, I would have had to share credit, but he didn't. He can take credit for the 10-months before I arrived (all photo documented), the par-3 course and general routing... that was his contribution. The design... LOL... not by a long shot. And as for what happened during the 10-months before I arrived... all of it had to be undone because of basic construction errors. The only bit that was usable was half the irrigation lake (dug to 30% of the depth required) and the high quality sandy/loam-like topsoil stripped from 3 fairways and used as fill for the buffer wall on the 5th hole. I've been writing a book about the project that spells out the process because I'd like to make clear the thought behind the design and who did what. Having taken thousands of photos from Day 1... it will be as much a visual explanation as written.  I wrote a piece for Paul Daley's Golf Architecture series titled... Rescuing Sand Valley; A Lesson for Investors, and kept the first daily design/construction blog of a golf project www.sandvalleygolf.blogspot.com

I would like to hear Tilander's take on the course and how he "designed" it and deserves credit as co-designer. Someone out there, perhaps an EIGCA member can invite him here and have him tell us his side of the story. I'll be eager to read it.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 06:09:58 AM by Tony Ristola »

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley, Poland, Tony Ristola with Lassi Tilander
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2012, 03:34:50 PM »
Tony,

I'm having a problem with the private message function on this website. Could you please send me an e-mail?

 steveokula@hotmail.com
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley, Poland, Tony Ristola with Lassi Tilander
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2012, 06:22:12 AM »
Tony is is one of the most original, creative and talented architects I know in Europe. I spent a week last year in Holland with him ( we spent some time visiting the classics and my project Swinkelsche)  and not only was it very useful but also a lot of fun. That makes so astonishing that he isn't much better known in the European market. I would love to find an opportunity in the next few years to work together with him.

I have only read articles about- and pictures of Sand Valley, but it looks like an amazing design on a rather flat property, the ultimate test of any good golf designer.  What happened to Tony at Sand Valley is absolutely shamefull, and is a case study how you have to be very carefull to protect your reputation, work and credits in this industry. It also is a shameful example of the role the EIGCA doesn't play in policing the behaviour of its members. Which is one of several reasons I actively chose not to become a member of the EIGCA.

I haven't had the time to go and visit Sand Valley, its just very far away from W Europe, but given my wife's love for Polish pottery I might find a reason to organize a trip there....

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley, Poland, Tony Ristola with Lassi Tilander
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2012, 11:22:34 AM »
Sean they have lowered the rates to a workable number. I agree now. that works in that market.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley, Poland, Tony Ristola with Lassi Tilander
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2012, 06:52:05 PM »
Well, what happened to Tony in Sand Valley?

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley, Poland, Tony Ristola with Lassi Tilander
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2012, 03:08:29 AM »
Tony,

Well done with the blog.  A lot of information on a project that looks like a significant work of architecture.  I hope to see it one day and look forward to reading more about it.

Sorry to see another architect has photos of your work on his website. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley, Poland, Tony Ristola
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2012, 04:15:34 PM »
Tony
Good luck and congratulations on the work
Whose pictures are on Tilander's site?
They feature quite prominently
This should be interesting
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.