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Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2012, 06:18:59 PM »
Ian,

I tend to agree with a lot you write...but...

Post 1990 technology can be completely neglected, especially if you have a decent site and aren't going to rape it. Just because technology is there, doesn't mean you have to be a slave to it.

As for your opening, people on this website might care, because they have higher standards. Just because the masses don't, doesn't mean others should lower theirs... in fact, we would do well to continue fighting for higher standards. The game has been emasculated enough. Someone must lead and defend... today more than ever.

I also wonder, if the owners were asked if they could have more interesting green sites for the same money... would they say no? Because it usually doesn't cost anymore... the cost is time and attention by the architect, not money.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 06:25:46 PM by Tony Ristola »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2012, 10:24:11 PM »
The reality is GPS is here, it's a precision instrument to map. Just like the old dead guys used their transits. Technology can't be completely neglected.
Ian,
I read your last post.  Shovels to dozers are used to "build" putting greens. IMHO.  Mapping is not building and the question was "Can great putting greens be built with GPS?"  I don't have an argument re GPS and mapping but I do when it comes to actual building. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2012, 10:40:21 PM »
Mike I am in your camp. I think it is amazing what can be done with technology in the planning and design stage. but when building the green one needs the human eye.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2012, 11:23:45 PM »
Tiger,

You're in Mikes camp as compared to mine? Did you even read my post and the endless inclusions on this thread that GPS is not meant to nor never will replace a human being?


Mike,

I've never come across anybody in the industry that uses fully automated machinery that shapes using GPSed AutoCAD plans and there is no human present. And last I checked, just like a transit, GPS is a tool to map. It's not a tool with an 8 axis blade and tracks. Everyone has taken the context of the title of the thread loosely and differently. I don't see how there is or ever will be a time when a green will be manufactured by GPS and fully automated machinery sans the human factor. I'm saying a great green can be designed using a creative medium like AutoCAD instead of pad, paper, dirt or plasticine. And with the use of GPS can be replicated from computer screen to the field. That process includes a human with his GPS equipment and actually controlling the bulldozer or sand pro, rake and shovel. Once it gets to the point where there is no more human interaction in the process of building then it's gone too far. But I firmly believe GPS should play a major role in all phases of the design/build process. Before, during and after.


Tony,

Not sure I understand your post 100%. Using GPS in all phases of green design/build is by no means lowering any standards. Standards of what? The quality of the final product or the standard of the design/build process and the tools used? If Doak wants to hand his client a parchment scroll with green plans drawn with a squid ink feather pen he can do that. But the standard isn't any lower from someone who uses GPS and AutoCAD. Not in the process with the client nor the final product for the customer.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2012, 06:49:28 AM »
Ian,
IMHO all of the confusion is over the word "built" in the original question.  GPS is one of several measuring devices and I agree one can choose this over other measuring methods.  And it certainly is a great way to  stake centerlines, bunker locations or if you measure cut and fill, even a great way to calculate.  And for myself, I would even allow it might be a great way to mark a few perimeter points at a green site BUT that's it.  I don't believe you can design great greens on paper.  One might sketch a "great" concept on paper and create that concept on the ground.  One might even use GPS to check pin locations etc. But  I think the question is no different than asking:  "Can great golf swings be built with video?"  And my answer would be NO.  Sure a video can be used to aid a teacher in developing a player but it has very little to do with whether or not the swing will one day be great.  And that is how I would measure the place of GPS in great greens.  JMO  cheers.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2012, 08:13:08 AM »
If Doak wants to hand his client a parchment scroll with green plans drawn with a squid ink feather pen he can do that. But the standard isn't any lower from someone who uses GPS and AutoCAD. Not in the process with the client nor the final product for the customer.

Ian:

That's a fun analogy, but the truth is I don't hand anyone a green plan, full stop.  I believe that if I try to draw the thing out, it won't fit in with the surrounds as well as if I stand there and work with my shapers to create it.  Not many guys can get away with that method, but if your reputation is good enough, you can.

All I'm saying about GPS, computers, etc. is that they create a [false] impression that all the details have been worked out perfectly, to the point that sometimes even the architect believes it.  When we have to do our plans in CAD nowadays, our friend who puts everything on CAD will tell us that the third green is 7,247 square feet, and sometimes the associate doing the budgeting will write down 7,247 square feet as if the green is going to turn out exactly that big!  I have to keep reminding them that the precision is all an illusion, and since we are going to design the green in the field, they should use whatever average I tell them [whether it's 6000 or 7500 square feet] for figuring the quantities. 

Of course, if we are on a restoration and trying to replicate a green that's already there, having the exact measurements via GPS and CAD will produce more accurate quantities. 

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2012, 10:19:30 AM »
If Doak wants to hand his client a parchment scroll with green plans drawn with a squid ink feather pen he can do that. But the standard isn't any lower from someone who uses GPS and AutoCAD. Not in the process with the client nor the final product for the customer.

Ian:

That's a fun analogy, but the truth is I don't hand anyone a green plan, full stop.  I believe that if I try to draw the thing out, it won't fit in with the surrounds as well as if I stand there and work with my shapers to create it.  Not many guys can get away with that method, but if your reputation is good enough, you can.

 

Why does the image of Tom with a long beard and rope sandals coming down from Mt. High come into my head? ;D ;D ;D
Seriously, this is like listening to Dems and Repubs argue about about how to balance the budget. Raise taxes or cut spending (when everyone knows the real answer is probably a combination of both).
Since I haveDsigned and built greens using just about every way described in the preceeding posts, all I can say is every job is specific to to the people and conditions placed upon it.
In some cases detailed plans were the way to go while handcrafting worked best on others.  Sometimes the client insists upon detailed plans because, in his mind, that is what he is paying for.  It is hard for some clients to wrap their heads around the fact that they are paying for a finished product qualitatively, not quantitatively.  We don't pay lawyers based on how many hours they put into the plaintiff's side of a lawsuit, they get a percentage of the take.  we don''t pay Realestate brokers per page of closing docs or by how many hrs they put into a sale, they get a percentage of the sales price.  But for some reason, this doesn't translate well into GCA.
We used to always have a field architect on-site to actually do the layout for the builders.  But then the builders realized they could "hide" that expense in the unit price for earthmoving or "shaping" and get that pesky architect off-site.  Since Architects don't get paid as much as most people believe, they couldn't afford to have to eat the expense and had to try to convey the design intent more accurately through plans. And the thence began the death spiral until the recent slowdown of the past decade.  This has given architects more time to be able to devote to a project and they figured out that the builders couldn't build if they didn't have plans and hence, figured out how to NOT supply that critical information. If the owner wanted it, he had to pay for it.
As Tom says, much depends on what your reputation is. But that also runs the risk of a Chicken or Egg conundrum.   Of course he has the rep so of course why not perpetuate it?  But, just how many greens on Tom's courses have been handcrafted personally by Tom?     I'm not calling him out but rather just using him as an illustrative example of some the mindset on this site.  As Tom has stated, he does have assoc. in the field building greens.  So, it is either up to those associates to "know" what Tom wants or do something that they think is cool.  Now, I imagine that the more they work together, the more comfortable the assoc will be with finishing Tom's sentences.  This is not unlike how it works in any Master/Apprentice relationship.  You will also find that at some point in time, the apprentice will have ideas that no longer mesh with the Masters (one or the other goes of on a different philosphical path) or feels he is doing all the work but getting none of the credit or a large enough financial inducement and goes off on his own.
Personally, I like to start with some planning but nce the rough shapes are in place, free-lance the shaping myself (not through some surrogate) and then check what I have done to make sure the slopes actually work the way I intended.
If I use a GPS or a hand level and tape measure, it really doesn't matter.  Whatever is at hand and the easiest/quickest.  Just like what piece(s) of equipment I use to build the green.  A dozer, a skidsteer, an excavator, minihoe, , a tractor and box sand pro and a landscape rake. I've use all the above and in various combinations.  The tools has some impact on the final outcome but not to the extent that the outcome is dependant upon the tool.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 10:59:11 AM by Tim Nugent »
Coasting is a downhill process

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2012, 10:53:03 AM »
Tim:

That's a fascinating look at the conflict between builders and architects, which I've fortunately been isolated from.

But it makes me even less likely to go the builder route in the future!

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2012, 11:16:00 AM »

Since I haveDsigned and built greens using just about every way described in the preceeding posts, all I can say is every job is specific to to the people and conditions placed upon it.


Tim
This topic is about great greens.
Are you saying all your greens are great - as compared to the masters - Pine Valley, NGLA...
Please share some of your greatest greens.
Cheers
Mike
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can great putting greens be built with GPS?
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2012, 02:19:57 PM »

Since I haveDsigned and built greens using just about every way described in the preceeding posts, all I can say is every job is specific to to the people and conditions placed upon it.


Tim
This topic is about great greens.
Are you saying all your greens are great - as compared to the masters - Pine Valley, NGLA...
Please share some of your greatest greens.
Cheers
Mike


Is that a loaded question? I don't think Tim was saying that. I think it's more than fair to turn the question back to you Mike.