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Scott DeBolt

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Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« on: February 20, 2012, 11:29:01 PM »
Said the golf course was in good shape although still dormant. Said 14 of the greens are very good and 4 need a bit of work but are playable. Sounds like the Tribe is supporting the golf course which was a problem years ago...  Looking forward to our trip to Apache in a couple of week...will post an update. We will play 36 holes a day for 4 days.... can't wait...love the design!

Anthony Butler

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2012, 02:02:41 AM »
Not to throw cold water on anyone's plans for San Carlos, but here are some photos taken last weekend at Apache Stronghold. There's dormant and there's dormant, I think you'll agree after looking at these photos. Weirdly enough the course was indeed 'playable' but the conditions really took a lot away from the strategy of several holes. Not that I'm a huge fan of overseeding and the verdant green conditions you'll find at lots of Phoenix area course, but after first seeing Apache Stronghold, I was reminded of Sam Snead's words upon seeing St. Andrews for the first time....

I got out at about 9:50 am ahead of a group of 24 coming up from Phoenix. There seemed to be about 4-5 other groups on the course at the time I started. A couple of other intrepid souls appeared shortly after i arrived and were told there were no more carts... The Navajos of the White Mountains are nice people, but they don't really know how to run a golf course or a casino for that matter. It's a pity because the last half of the drive from Phoenix is quite scenic and it could probably do some decent business up there during the summer months when it's a little cooler than the Valley.

From the first tee.



A short par 4 on the front side. Six?



Another green on the front side



Par 3 on the second nine.



View from the back tee on 18



Cool statue near the 10th tee.... I think they'd sell a lot more merchandise with this as their logo rather than the crappy type treatment they currently use.



For anyone traveling up there, iPhone and Google Maps indicates the course is past the casino... it's actually behind the casino. With no visibility from the road and god-awful signage it's tough to find.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 02:16:05 AM by Anthony Butler »
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Mac Plumart

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2012, 07:41:22 AM »
I've never played that course, but, regardless, those pictures make me quite sad.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Scott DeBolt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2012, 09:52:03 AM »
They have struggled over the years with budget dollars, poor water quality, poor knowledge in taking care of the golf course, etc.... AS I stated, I spoke to the GM and things seem to be headed in the right direction. The previous GM/Tribe wanted to fill in all the bunkers, etc... and he has been working on restoring them. Hard to get good help out there for what they are paying, and where you have to live, etc.....  Still one of my favorite designs.....

Not sure they will ever overseed up there.....no budget money for it but I think it would help....  Originally they had 1/2 inch bluegrass fairways but poor decisions by the Supt. and poor water quality really took its toll on this golf course.... they started overseeding with bermudagrass several years ago.... not near the same!!

Hoping they get this gem headed in the right direction....I have offered free consultation just because I love the course! Hopefully they will listen.....

David Kelly

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 12:18:48 PM »
That's the GM's idea of "good shape although still dormant?"  I loved the design of AS but this is much worse than I was expecting.

Anthony,
Are these pictures the worst of the worst?  Were there 14 greens in "very good" shape out there?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Anthony Butler

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2012, 03:10:55 PM »
That's the GM's idea of "good shape although still dormant?"  I loved the design of AS but this is much worse than I was expecting.

Anthony,
Are these pictures the worst of the worst?  Were there 14 greens in "very good" shape out there?

Most of the greens have some areas similar to those seen on the photos... they were worse on the back nine for some reason. Obviously mistakes have been made at the facility... it would have really benefited from some professional restoration work when they re-opened the club in late 2010.

While in Phoenix I was staying with my wife's uncle who was chief resident at the medical facility on the reservation for 3 1/2 years. Without wanting to make this a commentary on the Native American psyche, he said the Apache Nation have a curious relationship with what we might view as success in our society. It's not looked upon as "something to be achieved daily" was the way he put it.

I think the problems with the course are solvable... but I'm not convinced the current management are the right people to do it.

That being said, I enjoyed my time there... The weather was perfect. I was somewhat surprised by the lack of internal contouring on the greens. Although you could see how the run-off areas made the greens a challenging target when the course opened.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 06:20:53 PM by Anthony Butler »
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Tony Ristola

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2012, 07:47:05 PM »
Mac,

I think your sentiment reflects that of many people here.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2012, 08:16:44 PM »
They have struggled over the years with budget dollars, poor water quality, poor knowledge in taking care of the golf course, etc.... AS I stated, I spoke to the GM and things seem to be headed in the right direction. The previous GM/Tribe wanted to fill in all the bunkers, etc... and he has been working on restoring them. Hard to get good help out there for what they are paying, and where you have to live, etc.....  Still one of my favorite designs.....

Not sure they will ever overseed up there.....no budget money for it but I think it would help....  Originally they had 1/2 inch bluegrass fairways but poor decisions by the Supt. and poor water quality really took its toll on this golf course.... they started overseeding with bermudagrass several years ago.... not near the same!!

Hoping they get this gem headed in the right direction....I have offered free consultation just because I love the course! Hopefully they will listen.....

Scott,
I'm not certain of the time frame, but my brother Ron was the superintendent at Apache Stronghold from about 2001 - 2006  somewhere in there, maybe a year or two earlier or a year or two later.

He was the one who started seeding bermuda, and he had good reason as he wanted some grass in the fwys year round. AS is not the winter attraction that most of AZ is, much of their business, at least back during Ron's time, came form year round residents who made the trip in late spring - early fall, and especially when all the other courses were overseeding. He was working with Helen Lucas from seed research in an attempt to find a grass that would work under their unique high desert circumstances, unique far beyond the climate, soil, or water conditions. They tested different bermudas over three seasons before they chose a blend and started to establish a warm season turf.

I guess you can feel free to go up and offer your free advice and come here and talk about poor decisions, but you might just want to take a step back and consider what it's like to care for a course on an Apache reservation.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2012, 01:12:47 AM »


He was the one who started seeding bermuda, and he had good reason as he wanted some grass in the fwys year round. AS is not the winter attraction that most of AZ is, much of their business, at least back during Ron's time, came form year round residents who made the trip in late spring - early fall, and especially when all the other courses were overseeding. He was working with Helen Lucas from seed research in an attempt to find a grass that would work under their unique high desert circumstances, unique far beyond the climate, soil, or water conditions. They tested different bermudas over three seasons before they chose a blend and started to establish a warm season turf.

I guess you can feel free to go up and offer your free advice and come here and talk about poor decisions, but you might just want to take a step back and consider what it's like to care for a course on an Apache reservation.

Don, the conditions in San Carlos are fairly similar to what you'd find in Sedona or Prescott...I played a couple of rounds in those locations during my trip and those courses  also struggling to maintain good playing conditions especially with the dry winter Arizona has been having,  and it probably rains even less in the White Mountains. That said, I don't think the challenges of climate and soil totally explains the conditions at AS.

With the course being shut for over a year, it was always going to be a struggle to return the course to the shape it was in when your brother was the supt. I think the Tribe management needs to decide whether or not they are willing to make that commitment, or simply close it down for good... No-one I saw on the course gave off the impression they were high-rollers ready to drop a couple of thousand at the casino after their round. so at $25 a round with cart and an average of 40 rounds most days, the course is not going to pay for itself unless they run it on a shoestring maintenance budget.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 01:24:03 AM by Anthony Butler »
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Don_Mahaffey

Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2012, 08:08:08 AM »
Anthony,
I think both Sedona and Prescott are at higher elevation. The San Carlos area can get hit hard when AZ has an active monsoon season and that was very tough on the cool season grasses. What I meant by "unique far beyond climate, soil or water" was the challenges of working with some members of the tribe who simply do not want visitors to the reservation. 

The issues at AS will not be solved by an agronomic expert. Finding someone who knows how to deal with the agronomics is the easy part. They have had those guys out there and on staff in the past. Its a whole lot more challenging then that. IMO, until the tribe understands what they have, and has the desire to make it work, AS will always struggle.

Jim Franklin

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2012, 08:52:10 AM »
Said the golf course was in good shape although still dormant. Said 14 of the greens are very good and 4 need a bit of work but are playable. Sounds like the Tribe is supporting the golf course which was a problem years ago...  Looking forward to our trip to Apache in a couple of week...will post an update. We will play 36 holes a day for 4 days.... can't wait...love the design!

Good luck with 36 a day. Those pictures are depressing. I love the dormant look, but the deceased look, not so much.
Mr Hurricane

Tom Yost

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2012, 09:01:47 AM »
The elevation at Apache Stronghold is in between Phoenix and Prescott or Sedona.   This means, it a not a place one would travel to in the summer to escape the valley heat, and in the winter, it is colder than Phoenix and with the dormant conditions, not going to attract winter visitors.  A bit of a conundrum.

I do agree with Don, a big factor besides economics is the culture.





PCCraig

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2012, 09:08:31 AM »
A sad sight indeed....
H.P.S.

Andy Troeger

Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2012, 09:24:49 AM »
Anybody familiar with why Apache Stronghold has had so much difficulty in comparison to other tribally owned courses in New Mexico and other parts of the southwest? Places like Sandia and Twin Warriors are obviously close to larger population bases, but Pueblo de Cochiti and Inn of the Mountain Gods are remote--although Ruidoso has become a definite tourist destination now. All of those places also operate in the rugged southwest, which admittedly adds some challenges when it comes to growing grass. Is the challenge that Apache Stronghold is the only one that really has to attempt to be open year-round?

Bill_McBride

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2012, 09:27:19 AM »
Anybody familiar with why Apache Stronghold has had so much difficulty in comparison to other tribally owned courses in New Mexico and other parts of the southwest? Places like Sandia and Twin Warriors are obviously close to larger population bases, but Pueblo de Cochiti and Inn of the Mountain Gods are remote--although Ruidoso has become a definite tourist destination now. All of those places also operate in the rugged southwest, which admittedly adds some challenges when it comes to growing grass. Is the challenge that Apache Stronghold is the only one that really has to attempt to be open year-round?

The sad thing is that AS is the best of any of the courses you mention - by a long shot.   

Kalen Braley

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2012, 10:27:37 AM »
Circling Raven here in the PNW is tribally owned as well and its always in excellent condition.

I think the course at Apache Stronghold is just a one off.

Perhaps the KP next year needs to go to Arizona to give it some love...the weather is still decent in April/May right?

Tim Nugent

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2012, 11:11:07 AM »
Those pictures just make me sad.  While some GCA geeks might look past the conditions, I'll bet 99% of regular Joes will feel ripped off no matter how cheap it is. And you can bet they will "tell a friend".
Nothing is truer in Golf than "you never get a 2nd chance to make a good 1st impression".  And, when your competition is not a 2 hr car ride (with $gas prices what they are) and in much better condition, all you are doing is losing any goodwill you might have.
Before I expended what little resources I had on bunkers, I think I would be out there plugging in theose bare spots.  Granted, the Bermuda probalbly won't take off and start growing until May/June. Heck, even covering those areas with something like a Futerra Erosion control blanket would at least hold the plugs in place and protect against dessication and at least show the golfers that you are trying to make it better.
Golfers don't know grass A from B and don't know when one will grow or wont.  All they know is what they see.  And if they see dirt and stones where there should be grass, you got an image problem.  But most will give youo a pass if they see you are trying to rectify the problem.
I believe, contrary to what experts say, that always doing a project on a course is a good way to show the paying customer that you are reinvesting his greens fee into the course, not just putting it in your pocket.
Coasting is a downhill process

Jud_T

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2012, 11:17:38 AM »
Am I wrong or is the real problem that the casino isn't doing that well.  Most well-run casinos in good locations are rolling in dough and the golf course maintenance $$$'s are a rounding error...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2012, 11:18:36 AM »
Anybody familiar with why Apache Stronghold has had so much difficulty in comparison to other tribally owned courses in New Mexico and other parts of the southwest? Places like Sandia and Twin Warriors are obviously close to larger population bases, but Pueblo de Cochiti and Inn of the Mountain Gods are remote--although Ruidoso has become a definite tourist destination now. All of those places also operate in the rugged southwest, which admittedly adds some challenges when it comes to growing grass. Is the challenge that Apache Stronghold is the only one that really has to attempt to be open year-round?

I think it's more unique to the tribe in question, rather than something that can be said of all tribally-owned courses.

Closer in to the Phoeix metro area, we have tribally-owned facilities such as We-Ko-Pa, Talking Stick, Whirlwind, and Southern Dunes--which are among the best-conditioned courses (and in most cases best courses period) on offer.

But those are all tribes who are located much closer to the city and have had to reconcile any issues they might have had with that.

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2012, 11:20:22 AM »
Am I wrong or is the real problem that the casino isn't doing that well.  Most well-run casinos in good locations are rolling in dough and the golf course maintenance $$$'s are a rounding error...

Jud, this is a factor, as well, but I think it goes back to the same issue the golf course has in terms of real support from the tribe. The casino is small, doesn't advertise, and the only hotel on site is a grungy-looking Best Western. Meanwhile, there are much nicer casino/hotels on tribal land that are essentially right in the city--no two-hour drive required.

Tom Yost

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2012, 11:41:51 AM »
Anybody familiar with why Apache Stronghold has had so much difficulty in comparison to other tribally owned courses in New Mexico and other parts of the southwest? Places like Sandia and Twin Warriors are obviously close to larger population bases, but Pueblo de Cochiti and Inn of the Mountain Gods are remote--although Ruidoso has become a definite tourist destination now. All of those places also operate in the rugged southwest, which admittedly adds some challenges when it comes to growing grass. Is the challenge that Apache Stronghold is the only one that really has to attempt to be open year-round?

I think it's more unique to the tribe in question, rather than something that can be said of all tribally-owned courses.

Closer in to the Phoeix metro area, we have tribally-owned facilities such as We-Ko-Pa, Talking Stick, Whirlwind, and Southern Dunes--which are among the best-conditioned courses (and in most cases best courses period) on offer.

But those are all tribes who are located much closer to the city and have had to reconcile any issues they might have had with that.

The management of the metro tribal courses has been out sourced -  Wekopa is OB Sports, TS, Whirlwind and S Dunes are Troon managed.

Apache Stronghold is managed and maintained in-house.


Tom Yost

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2012, 12:05:37 PM »
I wanted to also point out that the transition from the original bluegrass turf to Bermuda was successful.  The Bermuda turf and the course in general was in very good shape during my first visits in 2007/08. 

The decline may be well attributed to climate or water quality, however, on each of my visits, I observed head-scratching elements of maintenance that, in my view, plainly indicated no direction by any sort of superintendent.

That said, I am always interested in a visit, and if any out-of-towners are coming in to play it and have room for a tag-along, please feel free to shoot me a PM.


Scott DeBolt

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Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2012, 01:10:29 PM »
Don, I was not saying that Ron messed up the course...I actually know your brother!  However, when we were out there from the beginning (when it was built) the Bluegrass was perfect....even the tee boxes and greens (both bentgrass) were very good.....  They have had several supt's come in and you have different problems. The apache workers did not take ownership in the course....the tribe did not take ownership in the course.

The bluegrass fairways were over-fertilized during a late spring application and basically smoked a bunch of the fairways. Due to the water quality (which is something I think they should address) they were unable to get the fairways back...I think Ron came in after the fairways were tore up. I agree with the seeding of bermuda into the existing stand.... was not that hard of a decision based on the amount of budget dollars they were spending on the course....  however, without tribal support it was going nowhere....  Most of the good supt's that were there only stayed a couple of seasons due to the lack of funding and support from the tribe...

The course is 2 hours from any population, the casino is margina at best.....which comes first, the chicken or the egg....with a revamped golf course will they fill the hotel and casino? I would guess they would still struggle....location, location, location...

I love the design but I also love several other designs all over the country that are in a bad location.....

I think going forward, they will have to overseed with ryegrass...dress the place up a bit....to draw people back out...hopefully the Tribe is behind the course now as the GM told me....we will see how it all shakes out...

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Apache Stronghold, spoke to the GM today...
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2012, 01:27:00 PM »
Scott,
The thing is, the golfers in AZ loved the course as much as we do here on GCA. I was the super at two different courses in AZ and at both my members loved to go to AS. It was a regular trip for many of them. They just got tired of the poor service, bad food, and deteriorating condition of the entire facility.
Even though it’s out of the way, if the tribe wanted visitors they could get them. People like that golf course; they just tired of the poorly run operation.
Every few years there seems to be resurgence, then a return to neglect. Until they get a management company in there to manage the entire operation, I don’t hold out much hope.

I'll be talking with Ron later today and maybe he'll chime in. he used to be a member here but hasn't posted for years.

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