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Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Views from the Railroad Tracks
« on: February 19, 2012, 07:24:07 PM »


Quote
You've never seen it, you've never walked the tracks and looked south.

Well, now I can say that I have.







Heck, I even got to see a speeding (well, actually more like loafing) train.




More to come.




Patrick_Mucci

Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 11:39:12 PM »
Bryan,

The problem is that you made your statements prior to walking or riding next to the tracks.

In addition, the land south of the tracks is now cleared.
In case you were unaware of it, there's a golf course south of the tracks.

Were these your photos or Mike Cirba's ?

What are all of those dense green things flanking the tracks ?

Are they Pine Trees ?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2012, 12:05:42 AM »

Bryan,

Here are all the photos.

They confirm everything I said.

Can you figure out why ?



http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7066/6903206857_3365eee1b8_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7059/6903210189_de25431056_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7182/6903213873_ab2fbd506e_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7203/6903217219_ec3b420bc4_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7046/6903223809_2115d32998_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7201/6903227035_f82ec6787b_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7062/6903230327_18860b8916_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7045/6903236889_7af0219307_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7201/6903396515_98c6f34914_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7199/6903402609_77c1208edf_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7056/6903405679_2248065948_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7056/6903405679_2248065948_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7178/6903409397_f2e84a8921_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7201/6903412227_c1ea459ddb_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7207/6903415169_61111b75e7_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7057/6903418047_7eee01e243_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7066/6903423877_41c709e87f_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7209/6903426933_e8707863e0_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7044/6903429917_b4c69a14f4_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7202/6903433135_8e43b2e3c0_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7039/6903543903_8704a3cdd6_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7060/6903547457_ba776ca8ff_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7203/6903551075_f95058b87d_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7180/6903554177_7d25e00503_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7037/6903557435_52111a23db_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7178/6903560497_0b7edd5751_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7044/6903564055_1d219288ec_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7061/6903570781_51a81207e3_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7036/6903573925_48a3c18e3a_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7047/6903577347_96e74775e7_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7065/6903584189_57c0ddbcf8_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7061/6903588045_0c406636c9_o.jpg
 
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7048/6903591631_6ffc047a59_o.jpg
 
 

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2012, 01:10:04 AM »
Man, I thought this was an Arlo Guthrie thread...isn't this that hipster site?

What beach is that, with all that sand?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2012, 01:19:06 AM »

Bryan,

Here are all the photos.

They confirm everything I said.

Can you figure out why ?




These are all what pictures? Bryan's? Your's? or Mike's?

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2012, 04:27:53 AM »

My pictures are my pictures.  The ones that Pat has posted are from Mike I presume.  I'll continue to post mine.  For some of us they will prove one thing.  For Pat they will prove something else, I suppose.

Here's another one.  For those who look at Google Earth and noted Old Mill Road and understand that it matches the right of way that Pine Valley obtained from Virginia Ireland in the early days for foot and vehicular traffic, and that Pat feels was for commercial automotive traffic, here is the current exit into the PV gravel lot at the end of East Atlantic.  Clearly derelict now, despite still being shown on Google's maps.  The clearing shows a single track through the forest, largely overgrown now.





Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2012, 04:42:28 AM »

Patrick has occasionally said that the current impenetrable bush on the north side of the tracks is representative of what the forest would have looked like a century ago due to natural regeneration etc.  Well, here are 5 pictures looking north into the "virgin" forest, taken in sequence from west to east (roughly) starting near the gate to PV and extending to the end of the course near the 14th green.  

The forest is, by my guess, around 80% or more deciduous on the north side of the tracks and quite barren in winter.  I did find one section of pine forest and it was actually even easier to see through given that the lower branches on pines die off as the tree ages in natural forests.  What is also evident in looking into the "virgin" forest on the north side are some pretty steep and deep ravines and some hills in the distance.  The ravines are quite near the tracks.












« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 04:44:37 AM by Bryan Izatt »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2012, 07:24:47 AM »
Remind us all, what was the debate twixt Iz and Mucci again?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2012, 08:46:32 AM »

Bryan,

Here are all the photos.

They confirm everything I said.

Can you figure out why ?




 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 08:51:04 AM by Mike Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2012, 10:49:56 AM »
I'm no geologist, but I think this area has MUCH more ground movement than the rest of the Pinelands, and I can see how a person riding a train would readily think it's be good for golf.  From here to Atlantic City, I think it's pretty flat.

Perhaps this area is where the shoreline was most advanced to the west, so you have more sandy sediment?  

PS - See http://www.state.nj.us/dep/njgs/    (see the bedrock map - Note how many geological features seem to have boundaries in the area of PV.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 10:53:35 AM by Dan Herrmann »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 11:20:09 AM »
Mike Benham,

Thanks for converting those to viewable photos.


Dan,

You can't be that obtuse.

There's a golf course now residing where thousands of trees used to be that's why you see fairways and sand/bunkers.

Have you figured out why photo's #'s 4,5,10, 11, 12, 19,20, 22, 25, 27,28 and the last photo are an intentionally fraudulent misrepresentation on Mike Cirba's part ?

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 11:21:03 AM »
Aren't those Joe Bausch's photos?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 11:29:55 AM »
Aren't those Joe Bausch's photos?

None of the photos in this thread originated from my camera.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 11:54:57 AM »

My pictures are my pictures.  The ones that Pat has posted are from Mike Cirba I presume. 
I'll continue to post mine. 
For some of us they will prove one thing. 
For Pat they will prove something else, I suppose.

I guess that depends upon whether or not you selectively post photos and whether or not you only took the photos to support a particular view or agenda.


Here's another one. 
For those who look at Google Earth and noted Old Mill Road and understand that it matches the right of way that Pine Valley obtained from Virginia Ireland in the early days for foot and vehicular traffic, and that Pat feels was for commercial automotive traffic, here is the current exit into the PV gravel lot at the end of East Atlantic. 
Clearly derelict now, despite still being shown on Google's maps. 
The clearing shows a single track through the forest, largely overgrown now.

You're going to present a photo of an abandoned road, 100 years after the fact, as evidence of the roads non-existance or use ?  ?  ?

If GOOGLE MAPS shows the road, that alone is signficant in determining its relevance, unless you think I influenced 'Google Maps"  







John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 11:57:10 AM »
So who's trash can is that?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2012, 02:01:36 PM »
Almost like Area 51 (Broom Lake) photo's..........

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2012, 02:19:38 PM »
Is this the route you Philly boys take to the shore?? no wonder you take a full day to get there.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2012, 02:28:42 PM »
Patrick, Nah, I'm not trying to be obtuse.  I'm basing my observation on having walked PV 3 times and having taken several road trips from the shore using back roads.  Honestly, I think that PV is located in the area where the prehistoric ocean advanced to, and that's the reason there's some wonderful movement there.

You sure don't see that type of geology out here in Chester County, PA.  It's rocky, clay soil where I live.  Not exactly the "inland linksland" you get at PV (or at Sand Hills, for that matter)

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2012, 05:54:26 PM »
Patrick,

Quote
What are all of those dense green things flanking the tracks ?

Are they Pine Trees ?

Looking along the rail tracks the green things are indeed pine trees.  From that angle they look predominant, but as you walk along you can see that they are intermittent and that it is predominantly deciduous trees along the tracks.  In winter the pine trees stick out more than the leafless deciduous trees when you look along the track.


Dan,

Interesting about the geology.


Patrick,

The photos I have and will post are representative of what I saw on both sides of the track.  Why are you so paranoid about some fantastical agenda?

The picture of Old Mill Road was just supposed to be informative of its current state.  In conjunction with pictures I had previously posted of the other end of the road and the middle part of it, I thought it illustrated that it was never more than a single lane track.  It persuaded me that although it was possible to drive into PV in the early days, the train seemed more likely to be the main way of access.  If you feel otherwise, feel free.


John,

I presume the can belongs to the municipality or township.  It's not on PV property as far as I know.


Bruce,

I think that's Groom Lake, but hmmmmm, it never occurred to me before - perhaps Patrick's brain has been seized by aliens.  :o


 

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2012, 06:34:35 PM »


As a precursor to the pictures looking into the PV property, let me say that I was able to see further into the forests on the north side of the road in person than appears in the picture.  The human eye and brain have more resolution than digital cameras.  Also, the immediate foreground of some pictures are partly obscured by scrub and vines growing up the fence.  Presumably there was no fence back in the day for the undergrowth to climb up.

Starting from the west end of the course property, here are pictures looking south.

Near the second tee.  Even fully forested, as the north side is, I believe that the hill up to the green and trees on top of it would have been visible from the train.




From behind the 1st green on the right side and then from further east.  The back of the green is clearly an artificial construct.  Back in the discovery day I think the small ridge it is built on would have been visible.






From just east of the gate looking across the van parking lot.  Pretty flat in foreground with a rise in the distance.




Looking south across the pond to the 18th green, is pretty flat in the foreground.




Looking across the 18th fairway.  The dip down to where the pump house and pond are now would have been obvious.  The rise in the distance was also likely visible. 




Looking up towards the 18th tee, the beginning of the rise of a rolling hill to the left and also away from the tracks.




Slightly further east, the rising hill to the 18th tee is blocking the interior view, but demonstrates a rolling hill parallel to the tracks







The view up to the 17th is blocked by the rolling hill.




The rolling hill is rapidly receding giving a view in across the 17th fairway.




A little further along east a relatively flat view across the 16th green with a rising hill beyond.




A look up the 16th fairway.




A look down to the 15th tee and across the pond (formerly swamp) to the 15th fairway.




A look down across the 14th green, across the pond (formerly swamp) and up a rolling hill to the 14th tee.




In summary, there are flat areas where inland rises were visible through the leafless deciduous trees.  There are depressions near the tracks where there were streams or swamps with hills not far in the distance.  There were two rolling hills along the tracks, at 18 tee and 14 tee that would have blocked inland views.

Hard to imagine that Crump would not have noticed the rolling nature of the land, but that's just me.

e & e o

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2012, 06:43:09 PM »
Geez if I squint I can almost make out a golf course! No wonder Crump chose the property . . . he must have seen the golf course too. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2012, 06:45:11 PM »
Patrick, Nah, I'm not trying to be obtuse.  I'm basing my observation on having walked PV 3 times and having taken several road trips from the shore using back roads.  Honestly, I think that PV is located in the area where the prehistoric ocean advanced to, and that's the reason there's some wonderful movement there.

But, he didn't come from the shore, he came from the west and the land to the west has plenty of topography.


You sure don't see that type of geology out here in Chester County, PA.  It's rocky, clay soil where I live.  Not exactly the "inland linksland" you get at PV (or at Sand Hills, for that matter)

Dan, comparing the terrain to other parts of the country is a fruitless, or rather meaningless excercise.


Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2012, 06:51:53 PM »
this is definitely a thread that should be over on our sister site railwaylineatlas.com  ;)

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2012, 06:55:04 PM »


Geez if I squint I can almost make out a golf course! No wonder Crump chose the property . . . he must have seen the golf course too. 

Have you considered glasses.   ;D   For whatever it's worth, it is easier to see in person than it is to see in the pictures.


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Views from the Railroad Tracks
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2012, 06:56:58 PM »


this is definitely a thread that should be over on our sister site railwaylineatlas.com  ;)

Are there no trolls over there?   ;D