10th At Riviera: For All Its Brilliance...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lynn, et. al.,

How much different would play be IF THE BUNKERS WEREN'T RAKED ?

Does meticulous grooming add to the options ?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Lynn, et. al.,

How much different would play be IF THE BUNKERS WEREN'T RAKED ?

Does meticulous grooming add to the options ?

I don't think the bunkers, raked, unraked have any thought impact on the tour pro's thinking.  In fact I am not even sure they think.  They just let it fly.  I would much rather have a 100 yard shot for a second shot than any of the 3 had in the playoff.
Actually I would just as soon see the greenside bunkers removed, as it was in the beginning, and let the pros chip from a 2 inch kikuyu rough.

[DMoriarty]

Granted the green was very firm.  However in the 90's in a playoff, both Davis Love and Fred Couples laid up with a similar hole position.  Both made birdie by the way.
So was that bad strategy or has technology changed the best way to play the hole?

Yesterday they showed a clip of Faldo making birdie in the final to that same pin in 1996.  He laid up to about 90 yards and knocked it to within 10 feet and made the putt.   Was it a significantly harder shot this year from the layup this year?  

On Sunday it about 84% went for the green from the tee.  Of these, about 36% missed the green on their second shot.  Of the 12 who laid up on Sunday, half missed the green on their second shot.  

For rough comparison's sake, in 2004, for the week, only 31% of the field went for the green, and the scoring average for the week was 3.78.  For what it is worth, this year the scoring average for the week was about 3.99.

I don't think the bunkers, raked, unraked have any thought impact on the tour pro's thinking.  In fact I am not even sure they think.  They just let it fly.  I would much rather have a 100 yard shot for a second shot than any of the 3 had in the playoff.
Actually I would just as soon see the greenside bunkers removed, as it was in the beginning, and let the pros chip from a 2 inch kikuyu rough.

Now that would be awesome.

[Philippe Binette]

My take on what happened yesterday

I must say, I was hoping really hard that yesterday's playoff kept going to get to the 10th hole on the Riviera golf course. This hole is one of the best short par 4's in golf and the playoff perfectly showed the design idea of George C.Thomas.
The no 1 element to look at is the narrow and angled green (red lines). Because of the angle, if a player conservatively uses an iron of the tee, he must send the ball to a very precise space (blue circle). To do so, he must play over the point of the big bunker, and not run across the fairway. A hard shot for a safe play.

http://binettegolfarchitecture.blogspot.com/2012/02/genial-en-prolongation-playoff-genius.html

[Peter Pallotta]

After Thursday/Friday's round, Phil M discussed his par at the 10th (from the front bunker to the back bunker and out and down). And he said something interesting: "If I wanted to par the hole I'd rather try it from there [front bunker] than from the fairway".   

Peter

[George Pazin]

After Thursday/Friday's round, Phil M discussed his par at the 10th (from the front bunker to the back bunker and out and down). And he said something interesting: "If I wanted to par the hole I'd rather try it from there [front bunker] than from the fairway".   

Peter

I think this is indicative of most pros thinking these days. The days of laying up to a preferred distance are long gone for most. Now, the strategy is almost always, get it as close as possible and rely on your short game. It may have removed or altered one element of the game, but it makes sense to me - the pros accuracy from a set wedge distance is not nearly as good as most seem to think, and their ability to get up and down from anywhere is really quite amazing, the most impressive part of their games, imho.

Not sure what implications that has for design in the future...

[Lynn_Shackelford]

After Thursday/Friday's round, Phil M discussed his par at the 10th (from the front bunker to the back bunker and out and down). And he said something interesting: "If I wanted to par the hole I'd rather try it from there [front bunker] than from the fairway".   

Peter

I think this is indicative of most pros thinking these days. The days of laying up to a preferred distance are long gone for most. Now, the strategy is almost always, get it as close as possible and rely on your short game. It may have removed or altered one element of the game, but it makes sense to me - the pros accuracy from a set wedge distance is not nearly as good as most seem to think, and their ability to get up and down from anywhere is really quite amazing, the most impressive part of their games, imho.

Not sure what implications that has for design in the future...

Very interesting point.  If I were setting up a design for pros, I would have few bunkers and make the slopes penal, they would become more defensive from the fairway.  Of course the average dub may never finish the round, but in general bunkers today help contain a shot and don't bring fear to most golfers.  Bunkers for pros are in their comfort level.

[JMEvensky]

Very interesting point.  If I were setting up a design for pros, I would have few bunkers and make the slopes penal, they would become more defensive from the fairway.  Of course the average dub may never finish the round, but in general bunkers today help contain a shot and don't bring fear to most golfers.  Bunkers for pros are in their comfort level.

I think if you went a step further,you'd help the dub while toughening the shot for good players--mow your penal slopes to fairway height.Short grass is the only thing that comes close to the perfect set up--the dubs can always putt and good players have to think too much for their own good.

Bunkers are just the opposite--havens for good players and terror for the bad.

Signed--Pat Mucci

[JWL]

If I may ask of the treehouse.......first of all, let me say, I love the 10th hole at Rivirera......so that there is no misunderstanding on my question....here goes.

If the 10th was just a golf hole on a higly ranked course, but the course was not a regular, highly regarded tour stop, and therefore most golfers were not able to see the hole played on TV by the best players in the world and you didn't hear all the adulation from the announcers about how great the hole is.......and average golfers just played the hole with out all that knowledge, what would be reaction and feeling about the hole from players that might only play the hole once or twice and had to formulate their opinion based solely on their play.
What I am poorly asking is....are the slopes, green size, etc, toooooo difficult for the average or even good amateur player and could it be that they might not have as highly regarded an opinion of the hole after making and watching playing companions make bogeys and double bogeys and higher on the hole.    I am wondering what the average player thinks about the playability of the hole just based on what they see when they play the hole without all the acclaim and positive commentary.    Based on other holes that I know of that have similar playing characteristics but without TV and commentary, my suspicion is that it might not be so highly regarded....but that is why I am asking such a long a drawn out question.   

[Philippe Binette]

There is a reason why there is an alternate green on that hole..

if it was not on TV... members would have complained that the green is too small and cannot be maintained in proper conditions...

would they have built another green or expand the existing one

[Brent Hutto]

JWL,

It does not seem like a hole that would lead to lost balls or having to pick up. That's the fun-killer for most "dubs" I know. The fact that a 300-yard hole can hang a 6 or 7 on your card might be off-putting to the most hard-core of the card and pencil set but I think its desirability has more to do with mental outlook and expectations than with skill level.

I suspect there are a lot of better-than-scratch players who would find it more of a grind than fun if they played it a couple times a week and I think there are bogey golfers who would find it the most fun hole on the course (6's and 7's not withstanding).

[David Kelly]

I was out there during the week and FWIW all the greens seemed much firmer than in past years, including 10.  The whole course played more firm than usual which I attribute to the fact that we have had very little rain this winter.

[Bill_McBride]

If I may ask of the treehouse.......first of all, let me say, I love the 10th hole at Rivirera......so that there is no misunderstanding on my question....here goes.

If the 10th was just a golf hole on a higly ranked course, but the course was not a regular, highly regarded tour stop, and therefore most golfers were not able to see the hole played on TV by the best players in the world and you didn't hear all the adulation from the announcers about how great the hole is.......and average golfers just played the hole with out all that knowledge, what would be reaction and feeling about the hole from players that might only play the hole once or twice and had to formulate their opinion based solely on their play.
What I am poorly asking is....are the slopes, green size, etc, toooooo difficult for the average or even good amateur player and could it be that they might not have as highly regarded an opinion of the hole after making and watching playing companions make bogeys and double bogeys and higher on the hole.    I am wondering what the average player thinks about the playability of the hole just based on what they see when they play the hole without all the acclaim and positive commentary.    Based on other holes that I know of that have similar playing characteristics but without TV and commentary, my suspicion is that it might not be so highly regarded....but that is why I am asking such a long a drawn out question.   

I'm suspecting it might be as controversial, love/hate, as #14 Bandon Trails.   It has about the same degree of difficulty on the approach shot.

[RJ_Daley]

If I may ask of the treehouse.......first of all, let me say, I love the 10th hole at Rivirera......so that there is no misunderstanding on my question....here goes.

If the 10th was just a golf hole on a higly ranked course, but the course was not a regular, highly regarded tour stop, and therefore most golfers were not able to see the hole played on TV by the best players in the world and you didn't hear all the adulation from the announcers about how great the hole is.......and average golfers just played the hole with out all that knowledge, what would be reaction and feeling about the hole from players that might only play the hole once or twice and had to formulate their opinion based solely on their play.
What I am poorly asking is....are the slopes, green size, etc, toooooo difficult for the average or even good amateur player and could it be that they might not have as highly regarded an opinion of the hole after making and watching playing companions make bogeys and double bogeys and higher on the hole.    I am wondering what the average player thinks about the playability of the hole just based on what they see when they play the hole without all the acclaim and positive commentary.    Based on other holes that I know of that have similar playing characteristics but without TV and commentary, my suspicion is that it might not be so highly regarded....but that is why I am asking such a long a drawn out question.   

Mr. Lipe, the only hole with similar playing characteristics of 10Riv, that I know from experience, that is not played by the best tour pros and almost exclusively played by either GCA fanatics or sodbusters and local sticks, is 15 Wild Horse, Gothenburg NE.  I am not familiar with anyone who says it isn't a fabulous golf hole design for a short - drivable par 4.   I think as Brent observes, the hard core pen and card competitive people may look at it as a round killer, and pan the design.  But I think those players that seek the essence of golf design, options, challenge mentally and playing skill set, embrace this sort of opportunity, that has both a chance for the layup artist with that skill set, the riverboat gambler, and the brave fellow reaching beyond his normal expectations, in hope of beating overwhelming odds he can't pull it off.  It is matchplay at its best, IMHO, and golf design fanatics catnip.  Add the artistic presentation of the array of bunkering, and the setting, and I think if you are struck negatively by the hole, you might be player whose ability to appreciate the best aspects of being alive and player of the game of golf is jaded by too much competition, not enough fun.

[Adam Clayman]

Bill, McB, Ron Whitten tweeted about the 14th at Bandon Trails and the 10th at Riv.

I don't see the connection. Because, the Riv hole is on much flatter terrain.

Mr. Lipe, I don't see the average hack making double here too often (In my mind) I played the hole once and almost made my par, but that was after two horrendous shots. The only other aspect of your comment I would question is; Why would anyone want to listen to someone who only played the hole twice, and, based their analysis on their own play?

[Greg Tallman]

Like say this hole JWL? Similar but less penal.

[Bob_Huntley]

I would imagine that of the GCA crowd Lyn Shackelford and I have played it the most number of times. In my years as a member I never saw a club member on the green in one and most of us played out to the left off the tee. Played sensibly it was not a difficult par, bashing it as close to the green as possible was an option seldom used.

Bob

[DMoriarty]

Dave, didn't CBS show a statistic on Sunday as the leaders got to the hole showing that the players who laid up averaged over par (4.08 or whatever) and that the players who went for it were well under par (3.89 or whatever)?

They showed something like that.  I don't remember what the difference was though, but I recall it being fairly thin. My guess is that the numbers would change with the the conditions, the pins, and the field.

I seem to recall seeing that.  Now, it's possible I'm mistaken, but assuming I wasn't hallucinating on Sunday, how in the world can you arguing that the layup is the better strategy?  Oh yeah, it just dawned on me... how silly of me....visions of the scintillating layup to #16 at CPC are now dancing through my head...OK, gotcha...

The "better" strategy?  Where did I argue it was the "better" strategy.  I argued it is a viable strategy. The great thing about strategy --  something you apparently don't understand -- is that it is about the particular skill set of the player, the conditions, the tee, the pin, the match or score, etc.

Honest question: ever met a layup you didn't like?

 

Never mind me . . . Bob and Lynn both provide valuable insight after hundreds of plays.   But then what does Lynn know?  He laid up at Cypress right before I did.

[RJ_Daley]

Ok gotcha?

Ha, he gotchoo!  Gesundheit!!! 

[Bob_Huntley]

My reply No. 67, has been corrected; instead of two, read one.

Bob

[Tony Ristola]

Are the short trees / bushes left of the green its primary defense against the long hitter?

Bogey

I recall 27-years ago that the area where the bushes are was a form of hard, sandy, dirt scrabble; and you really didn't want to end up there. I have memories of Jim Colbert finding that spot and not being too happy. How he got there I'll never know, as Davis Love III and Joey Sindelar (using Accuform woods & irons) were the only guys I recall going for the green and both ended up near the front.

Old time Riviera experts might correct me and claim I got too much sun that day, but my recollection is it was barren, and wasn't a place that was easy to recover from.

Lynn?

[Mike Hendren]

It is a brilliant hole and Riviera is at the very top of courses I'd like to see.  Just to stir the pot...

Has the extreme right hand side of the green always sloped downward from front to back or has the front edge been built up by splashed sand over the years?  That doesn't appear to be the case since that side of the green is visible in the  old photograph posted by Geoff Shackleford. 

Perhaps the hole morphs from strategic to penal with Sunday's extreme back right hole location?  I ask because unless one lays up from the tee within a few feet of the left-hand rough, the wedged approach still must cross the corner of the fronting bunker, only to land on a down/side slope.  From aerials it appears that the ideal line for such an approach would be to place the tee ball on or left of the cart path but for the rough.

Is an extremely shallow green that slopes downward good architecture?  I'm surprised George C. Thomas Jr. didn't employ his concept of maintaining fairway behind a green, resulting in one of Tom Paul's much sought after "pitch-back" holes.     That's essentially how Haas played it, whether intentionally or not.  Had he had a fairway lie he likely would have pitched the ball directly at the hole, hoping to  be rewarded for the risk taken. 

Bogey

[Pete Lavallee]

Sure looks like the entire green sloped away before the inclusion of greenside bunkers:

[DMoriarty]

I love that photo.

[Sean_A]

Sure looks like the entire green sloped away before the inclusion of greenside bunkers:

Wow, when I see this photo it reminds me a LOAD of Little Aston's 14th.  Take away the trees and set the right greenside bunker back off the green and presto - bobs yer uncle.  Many consider this the best hole on the course, but I don't think it has any particular fame other than Patric Dickinson praising the hole in his outsanding book, A Round Of Golf Courses.




Ciao