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Melvyn Morrow

Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2012, 04:53:58 AM »

Sean

Thank you, that is very good advice that I will be putting into practice from now onwards


Andy Troeger

Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2012, 10:15:19 AM »
The shame is not with me or my opinions, but others who agree with me in principal but are not willing to speak out at against the closed minded bigotes that try and police this site.


Absolutely, Sean. What was I thinking? Nothing objectionable here...or the hundreds of other insults fired away over the years by Mr. Morrow. If Ran wants to allow such behavior that is his call, but I for one am tired of it.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2012, 10:48:45 AM »

Sean:

See my posts.  I have no problem with his opinions.  I do have a problem with him calling people that I know to be good people "close minded bigotes" - it is golf for pete's sake, not the civil rights movement.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2012, 11:28:04 AM »
No need to get testy folks.  Just sayin' there is a time and a place to fight your battles.  This thread is not the time nor the place. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2012, 12:08:09 PM »
And the last thread was no place for Melvyn to call his dissenters "morons".  Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, as they say, but unlike MHM, the dissenters hereabouts are decidedly civil.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2012, 12:30:13 PM »
Terry

As if this wasn't obvious, but on this thread you fired the first shot at M and he fired back.  What was the point (he asks rhetorically), especially considering these threads are meant to be celebratory? 

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jim Eder

Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2012, 01:36:46 PM »
I loved the interview.  Just brilliant.  Thank you very much for doing it.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2012, 01:52:50 PM »


Thank you Jim and again Sean for your intervention.

David Whitmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2012, 02:21:26 PM »
I enjoyed the interview very much.

Melvyn is just one of the many people on this site whose opinions I respect and look forward to reading. I respect his opinion, I respect his conviction, and I respect his passion.

There are many things he says which I agree with. And, there are many things he says which I do not agree with. And that's okay. I do not agree that if you ride a cart, use a distance aid, or accept advice from a caddie you are playing a game other than golf. Like just about everything else ever invented, I believe the game of golf has evolved to its current state. Whether it's better or worse than "the golden age" is not for me to say. I only know the current state.

I believe the game of golf involves hitting the golf ball from tee to hole, using golf clubs (whether they are hickory-shafted clubs or graphite-shafted clubs). I believe how I get from one shot to the other is not important (though for the record I much prefer to walk). I believe whether I eye-ball the distance of a shot or get the distance from a sprinkler head, I am still playing golf so long as I hit the ball, and no one other than my caddie advises me on what club to hit, where to land it, or how the wind will affect it. Those are my beliefs.

Just because Melvyn and I do not agree on what golf is, does not mean I don't enjoy hearing his opinions. If I ever tire of them, guess what? I won't read what he writes!

He won't change my mind, and I won't change his. But what I do get from him is a different point of view, and especially with this interview, a ton of knowledge I otherwise did not have. And that, to me, is a great thing. 

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2012, 02:43:49 PM »

David - I don't see one criticism on this string about his opinions.  The criticism is that he calls others "morons", "bigotes" and "idiots".  There are people in this group that are infinitely more knowledgable on golf courses and golf course architecture than Melvyn, but they don't talk to others in this manner - - - BTW, thanks TD, I appreciate your kindness to my dumb posts. ;D
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

David Whitmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2012, 04:40:35 PM »

David - I don't see one criticism on this string about his opinions.  The criticism is that he calls others "morons", "bigotes" and "idiots".  There are people in this group that are infinitely more knowledgable on golf courses and golf course architecture than Melvyn, but they don't talk to others in this manner - - - BTW, thanks TD, I appreciate your kindness to my dumb posts. ;D

I did not mean to imply that others criticize his opinion, and if I did imply that I apologize. I was only talking about myself, and never had others in mind during my response.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2012, 06:36:52 PM »
Melvyn,

Thank you for sharing a wonderfully crafted collection of: reflections, associated illustrations, photos and other visuals. It is obvious that you spent considerable time compiling the elements you chose to present. If Ran also pitched in, kudos to both of you!

Alas, that last paragraph, for me, is a pity. Silence. Silence Melvyn. Is that all the caddie should be accorded? I am saddened to read that statement. For ALL of the TITANIC contributions that caddie golf has, and continues to make to the game, INCLUDING your ancestors' rich contributions, in its long history...how can you feel this way?

I ask these questions because I'm struggling to understand how you can draw that conclusion. And save it for last.

You say that people should enjoy the game. Millions of golfers, over centuries, have caddie golf to thank for their deriving enjoyment in: finding, learning, earning(even Old Tom), being taught and even playing on ground that has a caddie tap root. How can something that has added that much fabric to a sport you adore be a problem, or deemed to be a negative on par with a distance aid? Is their worth that menial...that silence... and the duty of a mule, be the limit of their interaction during a round.

Golf for quite a while, early on, was a game played chiefly by nobility and the wealthy. Bowmakers and skilled carpenters made the clubs and their kin took some whacks when they could. It took the caddie dynamic emerging, coupled with slightly cheaper equipment, to accelerate the ability of the common man the chance to earn, learn and hone the game in numbers.

What am I missing Melvyn? Why such low regard for the caddie dynamic, give that avenue is largely responsible for the game's growth as a more inclusive game, across the demograhic spectrum, historically. Golf today, the GOOD PARTS, would look nothing like it does without that caddie influence. Your own Old Tom's efforts are proof of that.
 
Respectfully,
Kris
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2012, 07:20:58 PM »
Kris - Melvyn's position against distance aids has required him to side against caddy advice. A good number of us have tried to pin him down over the years on what does or does not qualify as a distance aid, so to be consistent and unimpeachable on his position he has thrown any possible aid into the same pot. Obviously, caddies serve a different purpose than a laser range finder, but when it comes to providing distance advice he considers them comparable.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2012, 08:10:53 PM »
Melvyn is certainly entitled to his opinions, and so am I. If Melvyn's thing was skiing, and not golf, he would be telling us that it ain't skiing if you ride the lift...you have to walk for your turns because that IS THE WAY IT WAS INTENDED.  And right there...that statement...THE WAY IT WAS INTENDED...is where I disagree with him.

From the moment someone first smashed a rock across a pasture with a stick someone else was trying to improve upon it...a rounder rock...a stronger stick...that is human nature.  There is no...and there never was...A WAY IT WAS INTENDED.  And thank god golf has continued to evolve.  If it hadn't there would be about 2 people world wide chasing rocks with a stick.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2012, 08:22:33 PM »
If it hadn't there would be about 2 people world wide chasing rocks with a stick.

 ;D ;D ;D

That is funny stuff!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2012, 08:27:36 PM »
Kris/Michael

I do have respect for Caddies, let’s get that clear. I understand their contribution to the game. Yes the first caddies were there to carry the loose clubs for the rich, albeit they were not like today’s Caddies in that distance was never an issue as it is today. If you had told Old Tom the pin is 120 yards he would wonder why you are trying to ruin his game and I expect you would have received a few words of advice not to interrupt a golfer at play. I have in my father’s company used Caddies but like my father and Caddies of old, we require no help to play the course, just carry the bags. Today many players expect Caddies to be the information centre for not just their game but their stay within the area.

When I play golf I do not want help, it defeats the main reason why I am playing the game, for me like my forefathers it was all about man against the course, hence the importance of no confusing advice. AS with distance aids in the end the body goes into auto mode and re calculates everything before you release your shot, all input from outside sources are eliminated within that last second before you hit the ball. So why seek info if you know that the mind will re-examine the data anyway, so I prefer my caddies to be silent. As I have said if you use a caddie fine, but try playing a new course with a silent Caddie first time to see how your own qualities shine through or not as the case may be – experience the new with just your own efforts and input, because like virginity once it is gone it’s gone.

If anything I am just suggesting utilising a Caddie in the time honour manner of assisting you with holding the clubs and nothing more.

Caddies are great if you are on a short stay and want to know as much as possible, but I still say to all try playing that first virgin round unaided by outside information, it will give you more than you could possibly understand. The next day or afternoon revert to using all the Caddies information, then decide after both rounds which was the most enjoyable, the unassisted or assisted.

I would prefer to see Caddies assisting the older player than see him using a cart, but then as I always say a carts is great if you suffer from restricted mobility, something our Tom Doak seems to have missed when he read my interview.

Caddies are as much about golf as the R&A, it’s just that with Caddies I prefer to play my game that I am paying for unaided. Reliance upon yourself and developing skills unaided is what golf originally offered, I just want to keep playing in the traditional way, because it for me is by far the most rewarding.

PS Craig, Thanks for totally misunderstand me and my opinions and a little common sense would not go amiss either in trying to put words into my mouth
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 08:34:05 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2012, 08:51:59 PM »
I was looking around and found this ad for a really sweet golf seminar to attend.  I'm signing up!!!



David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2012, 09:44:25 PM »
"There is no...and there never was...A WAY IT WAS INTENDED."

Craig Sweet -

EXCELLENT point! Too often the way things used to be is confused with the way things were intended to be. They are not one and the same.

DT

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2012, 10:29:20 PM »
I enjoyed the interview very much.

Melvyn is just one of the many people on this site whose opinions I respect and look forward to reading. I respect his opinion, I respect his conviction, and I respect his passion.

There are many things he says which I agree with. And, there are many things he says which I do not agree with. And that's okay. I do not agree that if you ride a cart, use a distance aid, or accept advice from a caddie you are playing a game other than golf.

Well put.  I'm still digesting it and enjoying it also.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2012, 10:32:48 PM »
Terry

As if this wasn't obvious, but on this thread you fired the first shot at M and he fired back.  What was the point (he asks rhetorically), especially considering these threads are meant to be celebratory? 

Ciao   

I choose to not celebrate the inflexible, the dogmatic, the passive/aggressive or the mean-spirited. Maybe you do. There's a lid for every pot.

BTW the Hawks just beat the Wings. It's a shame they let those guys play with helmets synthetic sticks and all that padding. Why the heck do they need a Zamboni to smooth the ice?  Old time hockey is what they should play, out on the pond for Chrissakes.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2012, 02:18:42 AM »
Terry

As if this wasn't obvious, but on this thread you fired the first shot at M and he fired back.  What was the point (he asks rhetorically), especially considering these threads are meant to be celebratory? 

Ciao   

I choose to not celebrate the inflexible, the dogmatic, the passive/aggressive or the mean-spirited. Maybe you do. There's a lid for every pot.

Heavy sigh.  There is a difference between not celebrating and sabotaging.  You could have stood clear, but it would seem as though your goal was to sabotage Ran's intro.   I can't understand why when there are plenty of opportunities to get into with M.  Why do it on Ran's intro? 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2012, 04:36:06 AM »


Sean

Re the answer to your question to Mr Lavin, seems he has already answered; I quote "I choose to not celebrate the inflexible, the dogmatic, the passive/aggressive or the mean-spirited. Maybe you do. There's a lid for every pot." Presume he is referring to himself and his friendly disposition to others on this site.


Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2012, 07:43:25 AM »
"There is no...and there never was...A WAY IT WAS INTENDED."

Craig Sweet -

EXCELLENT point! Too often the way things used to be is confused with the way things were intended to be. They are not one and the same.

DT

I think you guys may have flat out nailed something here.  And as most of you know, I agree with Melvyn's core messages.  But it seems since the first rock was struck with a stick, people have been trying to find a better and more efficient way of playing the game.  (And this concept applies to everything in life as I truly believe it is simply part of human nature).

Featherie balls, gutta balls, scored gutta balls, balata, etc.

Hickory shafts, steel, graphite

Look back at the old golf magazines...they seem very much like our modern day mags in regards to the advertisements.

I don't think human nature can change.  So, at our core we are the same as we've always been.

Has anyone seen the lastest Woody Allen movie?  Remember the scene in the end of the movie when the lady from the past wanted to go back even further in the past because that was the good ol' times?  That made me think of golf.

Now again, I agree with Melvyn's messages.  But perhaps any endeavor undertaken by human beings will always evolve, as that is our nature.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2012, 08:35:41 AM »

The game in the 19th Century was trying to generate consistency. First with the ball. To those who know the Featherie, it was first a very expensive ball 6-8 time the latter Guttie. When damp or wet the Featherie would tend to misshape as well as to tear or split. The life expectancy was short.

Along came the Guttie resin based ball, so much cheaper and durable it gave the game of golf a consistency for some 50 years. This 50 years allowed clubs to catch up with the steady and reliable Guttie ball.

Having obtained consistency with cost reduction the game became popular as courses were being designed, not just played upon land but actual designed, thought went into all aspects of the course, most important being selecting the right land.

With the introduction of the Haskell the game had become stable. Courses had lasted between 30-50 years as 9 and 18 Holes before modification. Instead of pegging the courses to a specific range of sizes as we have in many other sports, Football, Rugby, American Football, Tennis, Basketball, Athletics etc., with stadiums being built to accommodate these sports. Also as seen in these sports, they embracing technology but for the good of their game, controlling equipment and development to enhance the playing arena. But no, not Golf, as the R&A had not been involved, being an ordinary club in that period, taking their lead form the Pros and Green Keeps of their day, they I honestly believe never understood that concept that they suddenly found themselves in, so development went on regardless resulting in ever expanding courses, watered down playing experience as all aids became welcoming and a massive move away from the Golfer vs. the Course, Nature and Designer.

What has come out of all this, expensive courses, overheads that are crippling clubs and the constant continued drive to more uncontrolled technology, longer more expensive courses and worst still massive budgets for course maintenance. Why have we not seen the same in other sports, perhaps because their Governing Body grasped the situation early and corrected the rot and watering down of the game before any serious danger. Why does our Governing Body deny that there is a problem with long drives, and longer courses?

I have played many sports over the last 50 years and none have gone through the changes I have noticed in our once great Royal & Ancient Game of Golf.

If other sports see a need to consistence and sustainability why has our sport not fully embraced these ideal, bearing in mind we once did before the R&A took up their Ostrich posturing of burying their respective heads in the sand (pity it was not full of water as the early bunker in the 19th Century at St Andrews).

There is a strong case for consistency, even if we ignore other sports, we just cannot continue to extend our course, apart from the cost, their sustainability, the mere possibility of a 36 Hole day of golf will soon fade and all we will achieve will be 18 Holes on a marathon course, taking all the pleasure out of the game even if you resort to riding between Holes.

But then again you have to ask yourselves, am I playing Golf or some watered down derivative of that once great game and in fact do I really care?



Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II of the Melvyn Manifesto now posted under Feaure Interview section
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2012, 09:12:26 AM »
Again, I think you are spot on Melvyn.

It seems like the governing bodies have turned a blind eye too long towards man seeking to gain technological advances in the game. And this is just not a golf thing...think steroids, think aluminum bats, think facemasks in football, helmets in hockey, headgear in amateur boxing. 

But the governing bodies in those sports, while asleep at the switch sometimes, seemed to have stepped up and tried to limit, or at least govern part of, this technological race.  While it seems golf's leadership has missed the boat.

Now, here is a potetnial issue.

Let's say you are a modern day golfer.  You play strictly by the rules of the USGA/R&A and abide by all the local rules of the clubs you play at.  How are you not a golfer?

This is where, in my mind, the rub is between many people in relation to your ideals.

Are the spirit of your ideals good?  Yes.  And I think most everyone agrees.  Even the people who argue with you.  It seems to be more about your delivery of the message rather than your message.

But, again, if someone abides by all the modern day rules of golf...well, then they are by definition a golfer.

So, it seems your biggest beef is with the governing bodies of golf.  Right?  If so, I think you have almost universal agreement.

And finally, I re-iterate that I agree with your view of the game.  I have listened to you and taken these things to heart.  I like hickory golf.  I like walking.  I like not using range finders.  But I can not scorn someone else who does not, especially if they abide by the modern rules of the game.  After all, those are the rules.

And in all sincerity, your interviews are incredibly good and I am a damn glad you did them and took the time to do them so well.   

Thanks!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.