[Matt_Cohn]

From Twitter:

"No disrespect to Mr. Hogan, but wouldn't put the 4th hole at Riviera in my top 1000 par 3's in America!!

Don't get me wrong, Riviera is a great course, just don't see what is so special with that hole.

Only about 1 out of 3 will hit that green in regulation this week. Grass is too sticky to bounce it on, goes over the green if you fly it on."

I've never played it so I don't really care, but I thought some of y'all would have comments about this.

[Sam Morrow]

I've never played it either but I will take his word for it, he is the one playing it this week.

[Scott Warren]

Luke Donald says: "Grass is too sticky to bounce it on."

I disagree. The ball can and does run down the hill and onto the green. I have watched it happen.

My experience -- limited, I concede, to my group when I played there -- was that of three shots all played at the RHS, the one that landed soft just right of the green landed and stayed there. The one hit lower and with some draw about 10m right ran down to the fringe and a wood shot hit low with a draw and running from about 20 yards or more up the hill fed down well to the heart of the green.

It all depends on the shot you hit and I can only surmise, mindful of his greater talent and experience playing the hole, that LD must simply be hitting the wrong type of shot for the hole, unless conditions this week are far softer than I experienced, which they don't appear to be.

[Grant Saunders]

Does anyone know if Riviera has always been a Kikuyu dominant course?

If not, when did it become the dominant species?

Is the architecture being undermined by the playing characteristics of the kikuyu?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I too noticed that the green is not holding.  Part of that is the lack of the prevailing ocean breeze.  The other part is the firmness of the greens due to the dry winter.
So Luke baby, play the hole the way it was designed.  Bring it in right to left and if you hit the right distance, just barely short of the green, it will come down to the flag.  Miss it just bit and it is sticky.  Take the sticky out dude.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Lynn clearly knows the hole. I found the grass to be an issue. A great hole becomes merely good because of it.

[Howard Riefs]

Does anyone know if Riviera has always been a Kikuyu dominant course?

If not, when did it become the dominant species?

Is the architecture being undermined by the playing characteristics of the kikuyu?

In response to Luke, Geoff Shackelford responded via Twitter:

Less kikuyu in 48!

[Ben Sims]

Scott nails it.  I remember the slope being plenty to get the ball down.  My guess is that these guys just hit the ball too high to get a release off the run up and not high enough from that distance to get it to stop if it lands on the surface.   

For the grass guys like there, can Kikuyu be made to roll better by mowing towards the green and rolling the approaches?

[Scott Warren]

Grant,

It's my understanding that the kikuyu spread to the golf course from the polo field that used to be on the left of the 1st hole. Of course for a sport like polo, kikuyu is a perfect, durable grass.

Not sure about the process of kikuyu becoming dominant, nor do I know what grass was originally used for the Riviera fairways.

[DMoriarty]

I was not out there this week but in the past I have seen many golfers bounce the ball onto the green from the right.  Perhaps part of the issue is the shot shape and trajectory.

[JR Potts]

Luke isn't alone in his critique.  A certain player told me earlier this week that although he loved Riviera, he's was going to have a hard time this week because everything he hit short of the greens, stuck in the grass...and anything he tried to fly onto the green, would have a hard time stopping (as he doesn't spin it much). He's said that a guy like Phil (who spins the hell it of it) would win.  Seems he's right so far.

[Grant Saunders]

Scott

Having experience with kikuyu in several locations, it never fails to amaze me how agressive and quickly it can spread. I can certainly believe that it started its invasion from a neighbouring field.

Ben

I personally cant imagine mowing direction or rolling would have significant impacton how the ball would react. A very intensive sand topdressing program may provide more consistent release.

[John Kirk]

Lynn clearly knows the hole. I found the grass to be an issue. A great hole becomes merely good because of it.

That's what I think, too.  Exceptional design, hampered by kikuyu playing surface.  But I also believe Lynn and Scott who say a lower ball flight will bounce down.

[mike_beene]

Never played Riviera. Is the grass the same as that around the greens at Bel-air?I have played there a number of times and always thought it was tough green side chipping.Any
comparison?

[J_ Crisham]

Played here 3 weeks ago- its a 2 iron right to left and 2 putts. Not a birdie hole. None of the par 3 s are-get your par and get out. 4 is a hell of a hole.

[Jon Wiggett]

Maybe they just tweeked the set up for the tour!!! I have heard thry do this sometimes though it is hard to believe such

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Scott

Having experience with kikuyu in several locations, it never fails to amaze me how agressive and quickly it can spread. I can certainly believe that it started its invasion from a neighbouring field.

Ben

I personally cant imagine mowing direction or rolling would have significant impacton how the ball would react. A very intensive sand topdressing program may provide more consistent release.

1.  Yes the kikuyu came after the course was built.  That why we all wish we could have seen the course before kikuyu.  I'll bet you could have punched a low 5 iron on the 4th and it would have come right to left big time.
2.  Common misconception, which McCord got wrong on TV(those guys truly don't know the course), it that kikuyu was brought in for the polo fields.  It was brought in to stabilized the surrounding cliffs.
3.  Walk around the neighborhoods, it has spread to most homes in Pacific Palisades.
4.  In the 90's famed super Paul Latshaw decided he was going to top dress and hand mow the front of the 9th green so that a ball could be run into the green.  After about two months he gave up on that.
5.  I didn't mean to belittle Luke Donald, truly the 4th with today's grass isn't as good a hole as it once was.  However it can be played bringing it in from the right.  Furthermore when the prevailing wind is blowing, probably today, properly struck the ball will hold on the green.  They are the firmest I have ever seen.
6.  Yes, it is frustrating to land it just short and have no bounce, but doesn't the kikuyu serve to defend the course from today's technology?

[JR Potts]

Lynn:

Can't an argument be made that the kikuyu actually works to create further imbalance between the bombers and the regular guys on tour as it requires most shots to be played directly onto the green?  Thus, those who have the shortest club that they can spin will have a direct advantage over the rest of the field as bouncing the ball onto the green is not a reliable, or in many cases, available play?

In situations like this....maybe firm greens create the opposite effect.

I'm in no way critiquing the maintenance set-up....I'm just of the opinion that there is no consistent maintance/strategic answer to the length these guys hit the ball - while keeping the course interesting for the average slob.

[Bob_Huntley]

I found Luke Donald's remarks somewhat self serving. The way these guys can hit the ball is quite amazing and yet perhaps the new ball technology has taken away the abilty to shape the shot precisely is one of its drawbacks.


Forty years ago, for a decent club golfer, it required a slinging one iron to a three wood draw to get a reasonable shot on the green; however when I played it last year I must say I was a long way from the green. Having said that, it seems to me that the the kikuyu is not as intrusive  or as deep as it was back then.

Bob

[Ronald Montesano]

Such a blase statement, so much deep thought to truly defend/counter it.

My leading questions:

How much kikuyu in Hogan's day versus today?

Isn't Luke an Englishman who should know how to play a lower-trajectory approach? Or the top pro golfer, for that matter?

Isn't golf an unbalanced playing surface, an unfair game?

Did Hogan hit it as high as today's dudes?

How old was Hogan (versus Donald's age now) when he made the statement?

Had a nice tweet-back with Aaron Oberholser today about the back deck on the 6th and how he felt it diminished the hole. How awesome is it for touring pros to discuss playing characteristics of holes with us? THAT is why Twitter is fabulous.

[Mark Pearce]

It's an enduring myth that the modern generation of British golfers grew up playing a low trajectory ground game.  Most learned in pretty much the same way as the best young US golfers.  Parkland courses, receptive greens.  After all, Donald (like many other top UK golfers) played his college golf in the US.

[Adam Lawrence]

I was going to say the same thing. Although, to be fair, if they played much high level amateur golf over here, then they will have a decent amount of links experience.

[Mark Pearce]

But, like Rory McIlroy, they'd play those links courses with a high ball game!

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