Road Holes and which one is the best working?

[George_Bahto]

Tom - thanks - I'll get to North Shore this spring

I was very impressed with the green there when I first saw it

the hole at Huntington is about as good as there is around

as I said, not many clubs can handle a deep pot guarding the green - NGLA and PR's pots are pretty well well but they have both been filled in over the years

do you remember how much sand you found in the bottom of the PR pot bunker?  curious

as I posted some time ago, when I dug out the Redan at the Knoll, I found 5 feet of sand in the bottom before I got to its original depth

[Tom_Doak]

do you remember how much sand you found in the bottom of the PR pot bunker?  curious

George:

It's too long ago.  Honestly, I don't remember if we even dug out that bunker or not.  I don't think we changed 100% of the bunkers, only the ones that needed to be put back to the Macdonald style, and the ones Mr. Dye wanted to add.

[Tom_Doak]

Angela,

No one has mentioned the Cape Kidnappers version of the Road Hole which I believe is worthy of study.

I would never have had the imagination to think of one at that site, so whoever came up with the idea has my compliments.

Tim:

Some of the ideas we employ are actually my own, you know!  So, thanks for the compliment.  I was sort of goaded into the idea for that hole by Mr. Robertson, who said he wanted a really deep pot bunker somewhere on the course ... the site for 14 green seemed like the best place we had for one, and that led to the idea to use the Road Hole green.

I did not mention that hole because I wouldn't really call it "a Road hole" at 350 yards.  But I think it's a terrific hole.  It was THE hole that brought out the best in the young guns who played in the Kiwi Challenge those two years ... Anthony Kim hit one of the best shots I've ever seen in person, from about 60 yards on the left side of the fairway, over the pot bunker to a right-hand hole location.

[Michael Moore]

Ask yourself, if a building blocked your view of the DZ from the tee, and the flight of your drive, with OB and more buildings to the right of the fairway and DZ, on any hole a modern architect crafted, would it be villified or deified ?

Would the architect be subjected to malpractice ?

Is there an owner/developer out there who would risk/agree to craft such a hole ?

Where are they ?

Pat -

Mike Sweeney and I recently played Butter Brook Golf Club in Westford, Massachusetts, designed by Mark Mungeam. I feel confident in speaking for both of us when I say that we have forgotten some of the holes, but most certainly not the thirteenth, which features two barns blocking one's view of the fairway, with out-of-bounds and more buildings further to the right. This was a fun, memorable, and excellent golf hole.



So, to answer your questions, "deified", "no", "yes", and "Westford".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael,

It looks like you have an unencumbered view of the faiway and the leftside bunker.

It looks like there's no mandate to drive over the barns as there is at TOC

Were you and Mike drinking before and after the round ?

How long is the hole ?

[Bill_McBride]

Angela,

No one has mentioned the Cape Kidnappers version of the Road Hole which I believe is worthy of study.

I would never have had the imagination to think of one at that site, so whoever came up with the idea has my compliments.

Tim:

Some of the ideas we employ are actually my own, you know!  So, thanks for the compliment.  I was sort of goaded into the idea for that hole by Mr. Robertson, who said he wanted a really deep pot bunker somewhere on the course ... the site for 14 green seemed like the best place we had for one, and that led to the idea to use the Road Hole green.

I did not mention that hole because I wouldn't really call it "a Road hole" at 350 yards.  But I think it's a terrific hole.  It was THE hole that brought out the best in the young guns who played in the Kiwi Challenge those two years ... Anthony Kim hit one of the best shots I've ever seen in person, from about 60 yards on the left side of the fairway, over the pot bunker to a right-hand hole location.

That's really funny, because AK played the Road Hole at Chicago, #2, about as poorly as you could in the 2005 Walker Cup.  He out drove Gary Wolstenholme by 70-80 yards, watched Gary hit 7-wood to 30', then hit SW to the back of the green.   From there he putted into the Road Bunker and lost the hole!

[Mike Sweeney]

Pat Mucci asked:

It looks like you have an unencumbered view of the faiway and the leftside bunker.

It looks like there's no mandate to drive over the barns as there is at TOC

Not from the back tee. Obviously, the right side of the fairway is the optimal side to approach the green. In Mucci-like manner, Mr Moore took advantage of his local knowledge against his guest and played over the structure.   Advantage Mr. Moore (an now Mucci for his next trip to "Butter Brook!!).

Were you and Mike drinking before and after the round ?

Gatorade as it was hot, then Sam Adams as it was New England.

How long is the hole ?

Mr Moore?

[Michael Moore]

Michael,

It looks like you have an unencumbered view of the faiway and the leftside bunker.

It looks like there's no mandate to drive over the barns as there is at TOC

Were you and Mike drinking before and after the round ?

How long is the hole ?

Pat -

The carry over these barns and the carry over the hotel are roughly the same, about 150 yards. On both holes, anyone who can't handle that is free to play out to the left. This hole is 321 yards long.

Why can't you just say "that's kind of interesting" instead of questioning my judgment?

[Mark McKeever]

Tom - thanks - I'll get to North Shore this spring

I was very impressed with the green there when I first saw it

the hole at Huntington is about as good as there is around

as I said, not many clubs can handle a deep pot guarding the green - NGLA and PR's pots are pretty well well but they have both been filled in over the years

do you remember how much sand you found in the bottom of the PR pot bunker?  curious

as I posted some time ago, when I dug out the Redan at the Knoll, I found 5 feet of sand in the bottom before I got to its original depth

Thats pretty wild you found that much sand in there George!  I can't wait to get out there this spring to see the Knoll.

Mark

[Scott Stearns]

I like the drive at Piping Rock--the new back tee makes it great. 

The green doesnt LOOK scary but making 4 from over the green is tough when the green is at speed.  The bunker seemed like the right leave.

What about the road hole at Camargo?  that is one  of my faves...

And thanks tom, for the bunker in the fairway on number 1 at Piping Rock...i lookr forward to seeing that every tim i play there...feelslike a preview of whats to come.

[Angela Moser]

George:

Thank you very much for your opinion. I'm currently reading your Evangelist book which is super interesting and enjoyable (especially your collection of old pictures and sketches). It would be a great pleasure to meet and talk to you someday.

I agree in all of your points. This is actually what I wanted to say - I blame it on my English... A template is not a copy. A template has adaptable features, but just works if the majority of the template features is there. For example: Just a blind, by a shed hidden tee shot is not a Road Hole when it is a par5. One feature just by itself doesn't work, but if there are more features of the one template and they fit into the landscape (no built chacter) I would call it well working.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen more than those 4 I mentioned previously, but it's super interesting how many you guys were posting. Looking forward to check them out one day. Right now, even with a pretty flat site, I like Piping Rocks interpretation of the Road Hole best.

[Sean_A]

Michael,

It looks like you have an unencumbered view of the faiway and the leftside bunker.

It looks like there's no mandate to drive over the barns as there is at TOC

Were you and Mike drinking before and after the round ?

How long is the hole ?

No such mandate exists unless we are talking exclusively about back tees.  One can comfortably fade a tee shot into the ideal position.  Since Pat has many times questioned why we look at courses through the eyes of pros or very good ams, I can only assume he is mistaken in his claim.    


Ciao

[George_Bahto]

Angela - considering the overall features, Piping Rock's version, once the new tee was added is quite good - NGLA's is very good

the key to building a VG, representative Road hole is finding the right "more natural" site that encompasses, the blind diagonal, the terror of OB along the right landing area, designing the proper diagonal (from the tee) fairway, the possibility of a major problem if your drive thru the fairway and of course the deadly green complex

IMO, this is why there are no really good examples around .....

on top of that - and perhaps the most important - finding a club who would let you built this monster and you know what? if a club let you build a really representative Road hole, it would make huge headlines

[Melvyn Morrow]

The Road Hole, the 17th on TOC is quintessentially Scottish.

It is what is proposes to be and that is both a physical and mental challenge to the golfer. Other copies fail either on the physical or mental aspect as modern designers are being forced to believe strategic is the alternative to penal. As those in the know - penal is strategic. You just have to have the balls to open your eyes and mind to accept it, alas, many, but not all in golf have that willpower.   

[Anthony Gray]

The Cape Kidnappers green is the best one.

  Anthony