The biggest clunker on the greatest course.

[Ed Brzezowski]

11 Merion East a poor hole. Really??

That is an absurd statement. yes it is a 3 wood off the tee. The second shot can be one of the best in the Philly area. Water almost 180=200 degrees around the green, a great bunker right. A beautiful green with numerous good hole positions.

Throw in a giant slab of sports history too boot.  I don't get it???

[JNC Lyon]

11 Merion East a poor hole. Really??

That is an absurd statement. yes it is a 3 wood off the tee. The second shot can be one of the best in the Philly area. Water almost 180=200 degrees around the green, a great bunker right. A beautiful green with numerous good hole positions.

Throw in a giant slab of sports history too boot.  I don't get it???

Never said it was a poor hole, but it's certainly one of the weaker holes on the course.  It is very one-dimensional off the tee: a 25-yard-wide fairway in the middle of a field, where long rough is the only defense.  Typically, a hole that needs long rough to defend itself is deficient in some way.  The second shot is cool, but a short iron approach to a green guarded by a creek?  Seen it a million times.  There are no options other than hit it down the middle and hit the green.  Yes, the greensite is cool, but there are bunch of others out there that I'd take ahead of it.  There is no decision-making required on either shot at 11, and a hole with limited options is, in my view, a weak golf hole.

[Chip Gaskins]

history doesn't make a hole good (or bad.)

water surrounding the green with sharp edges (rock wall) sounds more like TPC Sawgrass.

its just my opinion.

[archie_struthers]

 

I think if you took out all the rough on #11  Merion ....it would still be an excellent and sometimes terrifying second shot . Getting it too close to the  green isn't  necessarily cerebral. 

Don't see this as anything close to a clunker!

[Ed Brzezowski]

Well  I beg to differ. I rated that hole and we spent a good 20 minutes just adding up everything that could go wrong greenside.

 I also worked 11 at the 2005 U S AM. Got watch 300 players have a go at it, from what I recall they all thought it was a handful. Sure take away the rough, the greens and the bunkers and Merion is easy. However you can  say that  about any good course.

[Michael Blake]

John,

Have you played there yet?

[Kyle Harris]

I think #11 is a clunker because the fairway is about a third the size it needs to be. The tee shot doesn't matter on that hole and players - in match and medal play - are being tested for their mettle on the approach. Punitive long grass around a narrow fairway does little to further that end. I'm not sure that every hole needs to test every aspect of the game all the time - why not let the player hit a somewhat laid back tee shot and then really challenge the approach for everyone in the field?

[Ed Brzezowski]

Read a post today that stated thats why 18 @PB is a poor hole. Easy drive, indifferent second shot and a flip wedge.

11, imo, is a great hole and positioned well in the routing.
The hole just fits well in the round.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JK are there ten GCA'ers who've been to or played all of the above?

I've been extremely fortunate to have played numerous rounds at all 10.

I would imagine that Tom Doak and others share the same good fortune.

Kyle Harris,

I'd like to see Merion restore their fairway lines to their pre-narrowing/open widths.
Unfortunately, with another Open on the horizon, I don't see that happening.

[Ed Brzezowski]

That idea has merit Pat. But you can only go so far on 11. Trees block the approach from both sides. I would love to see 15 wider.

[JNC Lyon]

Well  I beg to differ. I rated that hole and we spent a good 20 minutes just adding up everything that could go wrong greenside.

 I also worked 11 at the 2005 U S AM. Got watch 300 players have a go at it, from what I recall they all thought it was a handful. Sure take away the rough, the greens and the bunkers and Merion is easy. However you can  say that  about any good course.

Greens and bunkers are architectural features.  Rough is a maintenance feature.  Merion's 11th has some interesting architectural features, no doubt about it.  But they are greatly compromised by the maintenance feature.  It's a penal hole and a cool greensite, but I don't see any options or unique features that make it different.  What are the greenside options other than a blast wedge shot or a penalty drop?

[JNC Lyon]

John,

Have you played there yet?

Haven't played Merion East yet, as I stated above.  I know there are differences between playing a course and walking it, but after a couple days of walking the course during the Walker Cup, I feel like I got a really good sense of the golf course.  Overall, I loved the course, but I have a different take on it in that I think the best holes out there fly under the radar (2, 5, 7, 10, 14-15).

[Mark McKeever]

 I guess my reasoning for 10 is that it feels cramped in there at the green up against Ardmore ave.  I understand that there are multiple options off the tee and I like that.  I guess I just don't feel the cramped feeling as much on the other holes out there. 

Just to note however, I really had to sit and think about how I could justify "clunker" and "Merion" in the same post as its a phenomenal golf course overall.  I am splitting hairs to think where on the course I get a feeling of anything less than sublime.

Mark

[Sean_A]

Lets put things straight. Merion doesn't have a clunker hole.  Whoever proposed the idea that Merion has a clunker hole doesn't have a clue what he is on about.  Pick a hole on Merion, any hole, now compare it to TOC's 9th.  Which is comparative clunker? 

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Count me as another who thinks 18 at CPC is a much better hole than it gets press for.  Tricky tee shot, strong second, tricky green.  I didn't think it was the weakest hole on the course, let alone a "clunker".

[Ed Brzezowski]

John,

Have you played there yet?

Haven't played Merion East yet, as I stated above.  I know there are differences between playing a course and walking it, but after a couple days of walking the course during the Walker Cup, I feel like I got a really good sense of the golf course.  Overall, I loved the course, but I have a different take on it in that I think the best holes out there fly under the radar (2, 5, 7, 10, 14-15).

Five is one of the best par fours in Philly. I hope to camp out there in 2013 and watch some fun.

[Jim Franklin]

JK are there ten GCA'ers who've been to or played all of the above?

I've been extremely fortunate to have played numerous rounds at all 10.

I would imagine that Tom Doak and others share the same good fortune.

Kyle Harris,

I'd like to see Merion restore their fairway lines to their pre-narrowing/open widths.
Unfortunately, with another Open on the horizon, I don't see that happening.

I only have 9 of the 10, but I will go with #3 at Pebble Beach. The new bunkers just make it awful.

[George Pazin]

Oakmont: n/a but 10 if I really had to pick one

Wow, you are the first person I've ever read who doesn't think the 10th is a great hole. I think it's on more than a few people short list of great holes in golf.

[Mark Saltzman]

Oakmont: n/a but 10 if I really had to pick one

Wow, you are the first person I've ever read who doesn't think the 10th is a great hole. I think it's on more than a few people short list of great holes in golf.

George it has been several years since I've played Oakmont and I've only played it the one time.  I can't remember a bad hole.  Thinking more about it, I would probably change my answer to 13 (the par 3), but the reason I said 10 is because I remember it being very similar (perhaps too similar) to no. 1 and I didn't like that.  Does my memory serve me wrong? [wouldn't be the first time]

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

 have a question for those who object to the rough as a pnal feature on number 11 at Merion.
This is purely a question out of interest and not a slam on their opinion...let me get that out first.
Do you guys consider water down the side of a farway..ala #18 at Doral ? Pebble Beach, as a good architectural feature of strategy?
Of a series of bunkers located down the side of a fairway a sa form of strategy?

If you consider both of these options as accaptable...why cant punishing rough be used in the same manner....both require the golfer to play accurate tee shots...that is one of the primary features of a short par four isnt it?
If you hit the fairway you are rewarded, if you dont your options become more limited.

Every time I have played Merion...each time in a tournament where the score really matters, number eleven has always been one of my favourites...the anxiety of knowing you MUST hit the fairway..otherwise your second shot if going to be very very intimidating.
One in the farway you have more options attack the pin or centre of the green.....to me a far superior hole to the one that follows it or precedes it....

[Bart Bradley]

Lets put things straight. Merion doesn't have a clunker hole.  Whoever proposed the idea that Merion has a clunker hole doesn't have a clue what he is on about.  Pick a hole on Merion, any hole, now compare it to TOC's 9th.  Which is comparative clunker? 

Ciao

Sean, you have made a lot of good posts on this website but I could not agree more with you than on the one above.  Merion has NO clunker holes.  Some may be better than others, some could possibly be slightly improved...none are clunkers.

Bart

[Mark Saltzman]

Michael,

Great question... here's my take.

Thick rough on both sides of the fairway is very much a do-or-die proposition.  On a fairway like the 11th at Merion especially, where it is less than a driver off the tee (and thus there is little consideration in terms of strategy about what club to hit because you are always just hitting whatever clubs gets you down the hill), rough on both sides means there is no strategy.  Hit the fairway or don't... sure this puts pressure on the golfer, but it doesn't add to strategy.

The water left of 18 at Doral, no that's not strategic either.  Again, it's do or die because of the bunkering/rough/trees to the right.  No real advantage is gained playing up the left as the approach angle is easier from the right.  Not much thought, just execute.

There was some debate already about the 18th at Pebble re strategy.  Again, there is water left and bunkers/ob right so it is execute or re-load.  At least here there is an option to hit less club off the tee, which is a form of strategy (in my mind), but I don't think this is a great strategic hole.  Sure, playing down the left leaves a shorter second shot, but few golfers can actually reach the green in two and the angle for laying-up is more difficult from the left (trees in the fairway aside).

[Bill_McBride]

Pebble: 16
 

This may be the first time I've seen this here. I think 16 is wonderful and is one of favorites on the course. Number 1 there is easliy the worst.


I agree with Mr Palmer, 18 at CPC gets a bad rap. I like it.

Curious about your line off the tee....  I've played the hole twice and remain clueless.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Bill...
Left side of the fairway with a gentle fade with a three wood or long iron/hybrid......worst case scenario on the left side of the fairway with  a god line into the green.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

So Mark..
Perhaps just a wider fairway would be better?
Iwould have no problem with that, I think the right side of the hole could have the fairway widened by ten yards.
If you hit the far right of the fairway, you would still have a tough shot into the green but at least you would hav a shot as opposed to a lay up out of the heavy rough...I could go for that.

But at some point accuracy off the tee should be rewarded and that is certainly one of the holes that fits the bill.