Cabin Fever Cure Part 6: ACCC/Greate Bay Wrap-up

[Jason Walker]

had to be nice at the shore?  i sprinted nine at Tavistock this afternoon between naptimes and it was spectacular.  This is the best winter I can recall in my 13 years in the area...(knocking hard on wood right now)

[archie_struthers]

 

Wish I could have joined in the festivities today, but it was nice to have everyone visit the club . Looked like some pretty good swings, even with the winter gear !

We have lots of fun at Greate Bay, as the course looks easy but plays pretty hard.  Not a lot OB, water or forced carries,  so the slope and rating are fairly benign.  However, it requires straight driving and good iron play , as the greens are not easy to hit. Really old school design for the most part.

Lots of Park left, with fourteen original greens, if you count  the old putting green at the back of the driving range.  The course you played today has originals on #1,2,4,5 (punch bowl) , 7, 8,9,10,13,14 (unique), 15, 17 and 18.

 Ron Garl and someone else ?  Tinkered with #3 & 6 and built 11 & 12 .  I'd love to redo the 6th Green, a nice par five, which has a green that, while difficult, is too big relative to the shots required and in relation to the original greens.  I barely remember the original green , which was quite small and devilishly designed. Any help finding photos would be appreciated ,as I know you guys are experts. We have some aerials from the Hagley Museum, a great source.  They are a start!

Interesting to hear from you sweet swinging armchair architects lol, what you deemed the best part of the Park architecture. In a perfect world 11 and 12 would get a trip back in time!


We always enjoy visitors to the shore, come back soon!   

[Rory Connaughton]

Joe

   Many thanks for your continued sponsorship of the Jersey Shore Executive Tour.  ACCC, as always, was great fun especially with the 3 club wind.  For those who have never been to ACCC in winter, the course was plenty firm and plenty dry.  Greens
were not shaggy.  They were a tad slow but plenty true and certainly interesting..  The course takes on a great wheat color and the expansive bunkers may look even better in winter than in mid season.  They certainly impact play significantly with the winter wind.  If you haven't been and get a good day between now and April, go!  I'm only sorry that I missed GB today.

Best.  --ROC

[John Shimony]

Thanks again, Joe and Archie.  I wish you could have joined us, Archie.  Your knowledge of the course would have made my poor play more bearable.  The highlights of Greate Bay for me were the par four 2nd hole that plays about 415.  The green is shallow and perched on a knoll with a deep bunker protecting the left and center of the green.  Very tough in the winter AND summer I'm sure.  Next is the par five 6th hole, 540 yds.  It sweeps down and to the left and then climbs up the hill to what Archie describes as a large green, which it is, but the back left portion is a miniature green all by itself.  The hole is beautiful; looks like Melbourne.  (We used the Melbourne reference repeatedly over at ACCC.)  I went for the green in two on this par five with a three wood and hit the roof of the building about 50 yards right.  I did this from a hanging right to left lie in the fairway.  Pure.  Another pretty hole, the par four 400 yd 8th, sweeps right to left as well but you hit up and over a small rise to a nice raised green with a false front if  I recall.  And I also loved the par four 375 yd 14th that tumbles left to right down a hill to a unique green that is high on the left, the back and the right and falls steeply to a depression in the front center of the green.  We had fun putting that beast.  What a great course with great greens!  Archie, you have a course that can play long but is wide open with plenty of interesting movement throughout and cool greens.  It has it all.  One last thing, Joe swears he saw the remnants of an Alps hole heading off the right side of the 11th tee toward the 12th green atop the hill beyond the marsh.  Are his powers of perception spot on or just the musings of a GCA nerd.  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Thanks again to all, it was nice to see all of you.  I haven't had many opportunities like this in some time to get out, so I was doubly pleased. 
I am sorry I didn't get to GBCC, but thanks to Archie.  I do hope to get there soon. 

ACCC-probably about as good as I expected, and I had pretty high expectations.  This has been on my "to-play" for about seven or eight years now; I remember going to Atlantic City in August, 2004, and, one morning, driving to the course so I could look around.  A few things jumped out at me; first, the routing.  In contrast to Seaview Bay, this routing is more parallel to the water, or, in other terms, plays more into or downwind, with some exceptions.  I am not saying this is a boring, back and forth layout.  It's not.  There are subtleties to many of the holes, for example the 2nd, green oriented to best accept a shot from the left side of the fairway. 

Two of the shorter par 3s (4 and 12) are downwind, putting distance control at a premium.  My group discovered that, in spades. 

The longer par 3 (15) is pretty much back into the wind-but there is ample space around the green to bail out. 

At first, I was a little apprehensive of 13-14-16 (as many of you know, my miss is hard right). There was plenty of room to play  here.  How refreshing. 

I did comment to Mike about the size of the greens; it seemed to me, for a course this windy, we may have done better with slightly larger greens, but no matter.  There was ample room to bail out, or play short and come in with a running approach. 

And I say!  Some of the holes-10, back into the wind, Mein Gott.  Great for matchplay.

Wondering out loud about #18-was is a safety concern, to move the tee forward? 

Wow.  Will have to get back there, soon. 

[Mark McKeever]

Let me know when you want to go back to ACCC Doug.  Sorry I missed out on Saturday.

Greate bay was a blast.  There is a lot of great architecture out there and it reminded me of my home course in a couple of spots.  I also noted the NLE alps hole when we stood on 11 tee, so I will say that Joe was not nerdily out of line!  I hope to head back there again soon as it was a really fun golf course. 

Lastly, I would like to officailly nominate The Links at Brigantine Beach for a slot in the upcoming executive tour.  What a neat golf course with some wild old school greens.  Its a shorter course, but you really need to hink your way around it because the salt marshs always seemed to come into play when you were thinking of being more agressive.   

Mark

[Joe Bausch]

Check out the Google Earth aerial and that corridor sure looks like it was about a 310 yard par 4 in 1991.  But I'm not sure the Alps feature was there.

[JNC Lyon]

Checked out the Atlantic City aerial, complete with a third nine (a map of which is found in Missing Links). It looks like, as you might expect, some things have improved over the years, and some have declined.  The 6th hole (long par five) originally had a hell's half acre feature on the second shot, really cool stuff.  The second green is now the 5th green (as we suspected).  The original 2nd hole looked like a cool hole from the air, but it appears to have deteriorated somewhat by 1995.

In general, it seems like the new holes along the water are much more dynamic now than they were originally.  The angles are sharper now, and the decision-making on holes 14 and 16 appear to be more intense now than they were before.  Obviously, the current configuration of 14-18 is a bit shoehorned in, but it looks like the original configuration was like that as well.  Moreover, it doesn't like the range has changed location, at least not in the past 50 years.  To me, what is there now appears more interesting than what was there originally--a rare thing in golf course architecture.

Also, the plaque commemorated the birth of the term "birdie" appears to be situated close to what was originally the 3rd green on the third nine.  In fact, it looks like that green might now be the practice green. Any significance there?

[JNC Lyon]

Check out the Google Earth aerial and that corridor sure looks like it was about a 310 yard par 4 in 1991.  But I'm not sure the Alps feature was there.

Are we sure the current 12th green is not original?  It looks like there was always a green in that location...

[Joe Bausch]

Check out the Google Earth aerial and that corridor sure looks like it was about a 310 yard par 4 in 1991.  But I'm not sure the Alps feature was there.

Are we sure the current 12th green is not original?  It looks like there was always a green in that location...

I'm confident that green is original.  I hope my post didn't suggest it was not.

Here is a 1991 aerial of that part of the course:



And a 2011 aerial:

[JNC Lyon]

Archie says above that the 12th green is not original.  Maybe he can comment further?

Also what happened to those bunkers by the 11th green?

[Kris Shreiner]

Special thanks to Archie and Joe for a merry outing at the brawny "executive" offering that is Greate Bay CC. At 6800 and change,with plenty of intrigue tee thru green and a par of 70...there is PLENTY of golf for ALL!

Great to see and share time with the other hardy GCA Winter Stalwarts out and about.

Hey Tim, I think you and I need to tag-team, take Joe... and give him a good old fashioned caddie beating for that line!!!

Cheers,
Kris

[Mark McKeever]

John also said he would take someone in a fight over hole 16 at ACCC.  Could schedule both at once.

Mark

[archie_struthers]

 [url]

The 12th at ACCC was in about the same location. In  Tom Doak's renovation  the fairway was raised and the green was moved slightly back (north)) and slightly left (west) .  The hole I've known since the seventies was similar, if a little shorter. There were drainage issues that  were resolved, and the fairway was raised at least three  to five feet. in total. That's a big change and required substantial fill.  Ditto for number 16, which was raised , perhaps a little more. .

Both greens are dramatically different , and the new holes have less water in play. I like 16 new, many don't think it as good as the originally hole.
Lots of fond memories of Atlantic City CC here at the shore, as much for the club life and history as the architecture. I was never a member , but was lucky to participate in the Fraser Tournament . Tom D does great stuff, but there was a tremendous disconnect between the casino,owners who charged him to renovate/ redo the course and the long time members and fans of ACCC.  Most would prefer the old course to the new one. It was easier, both to,play and navigate.

Certainly ACCC deserves a thread of its own, as does Willie Park Jr's work right down Shore Road. 

[JNC Lyon]

Archie,

Sorry, I didn't make it clear in my post--I'm wondering if the current 12th at Greate Bay (not A.C.C.C.) is an original Park green--it doesn't appear to have move from the original spot.

Thanks again for hosting on Sunday--I'm a Park fan, and Greate Bay was a real treat.

[archie_struthers]

  ;


You are mostly right ,  it's the original spot, but a Ron Garl green.  No Willie Park Jr left, a big mistake in his redo. We will rebuild the original hole and green to Park like standards soon !!!!   

[Mark McKeever]

Archie,

Honestly, twelve was a green that we stuck around on and kept hitting practice putts because we were liking it so much!  I'd love to see the square back left section on hole 13 reclaimed!

Mark

[Joe Bausch]

Would you like to tackle the original routing of Greate Bay using this 1927 article, and below it, the 1931 aerial?

[Joe Bausch]

This 1956 aerial is much clearer:

[Mark McKeever]

I've drawn the lines, but not quite sure how it would have worked in order...

Mark

[archie_struthers]

 

Mark ....great point on #12.  It is a wild green , but like the 11th Garl seems to have built them with no thought to the rest  of the course and the genre Park Jr brought to Somers Point.    It's just out of place here,  although quite challenging. ., would fit fine at Stone Harbor, which
is borderline genius laced with insanity.

Moving on, Joe gives us some great  visuals to look at. As we discussed the two tunnels under  Route 9 weren't there until the late 70's when owner Gene Gatti built them to protect the players. Gatti built the existing condos off 18 , moved the clubhouse to its present spot, and later authorized the Garl redo to facilitate a range next  to the clubhouse. . #17 used to be the finale (18) , and the clubhouse was to the left of the existing 17th green. Gene was a real mover and shaker, a self made multi-millionaire who loved golf!   He was a long time member of Manufacturer's who settled in the AC area and made a big mark here, He was of course a member at AC Country Club , with many of his Philly golf friends. I really miss him!

Will review and reply later , thanks all for the dialogue!

[John Shimony]

Did the original routing start in the bottom right hand corner of the picture and move out to the left with four par fours along the road then turn right at the par three?

[Joe Bausch]

Did the original routing start in the bottom right hand corner of the picture and move out to the left with four par fours along the road then turn right at the par three?

Yes.

I have much of the original routing figured out but can't quite make it work entirely.  More later today after lab.   

[John Shimony]

I think I got it.  I don't know how to post pictures but:

Old Front Nine = 18, non-existent par four, 7, 8, 9, 10, 6, par three in oppisite direction as current 3rd, 1;
Old Back Nine = 2, 4, 5, alps, 13, 14, 15, lost par three near Archie's current 16, 17.

[Joe Bausch]

I think I got it.  I don't know how to post pictures but:

Old Front Nine = 18, non-existent par four, 7, 8, 9, 10, 6, par three in oppisite direction as current 3rd, 1;
Old Back Nine = 2, 4, 5, alps, 13, 14, 15, lost par three near Archie's current 16, 17.

I think you've got it Johnny!  I'll post what I did later as a picture.  Sounds about what you have.