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Matt MacIver

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2012, 11:51:29 AM »
Bruce - your math gets even worse if you include:

G: Tennis
H: Fitness/pool/tennis/locker rooms

Agree that minimums are there because typically country club Members expect to be able to come in any time and order any thing, and be treated very well.  But, generally speaking, it is crazy that Outback (or pick your favorite chain restaurant here) can run profitably while more clubs can not. 

Bruce Katona

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2012, 12:58:37 PM »
matt: You're spot on with pool & Tennis!  two other perpetual money losing operations.  The insurance costs to operate a pool are the killer while tennis is just not that big of a sport any longer.

Dan Boerger

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2012, 01:10:52 PM »
I realize this is almost certainly the exception rather than the rule, but there is no way our club would be as successful without a Pool and Tennis facility offering. A pool absolutely keeps families with younger children more involved in the club. And a Tennis/Paddle facility does attract some less golf-addicted members.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Mark Johnson

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2012, 01:16:42 PM »
Bruce - your math gets even worse if you include:

G: Tennis
H: Fitness/pool/tennis/locker rooms

Agree that minimums are there because typically country club Members expect to be able to come in any time and order any thing, and be treated very well.  But, generally speaking, it is crazy that Outback (or pick your favorite chain restaurant here) can run profitably while more clubs can not. 


If you are in Minnesota

I:  Ice Rink

PCCraig

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2012, 01:35:32 PM »
Bruce - your math gets even worse if you include:

G: Tennis
H: Fitness/pool/tennis/locker rooms

Agree that minimums are there because typically country club Members expect to be able to come in any time and order any thing, and be treated very well.  But, generally speaking, it is crazy that Outback (or pick your favorite chain restaurant here) can run profitably while more clubs can not. 


If you are in Minnesota

I:  Ice Rink

Mark,

Clubs in Minnesota have an obvious disadvantage when it comes to the climate and the annual availability of its golf course. To keep a F&B operation running year round it's important to get people using the club in the winter. Ice rinks, cross country ski trails, fitness centers, etc. would be worth the extra set-up hassle.

Because of this and despite the weather, I'm surprised that Paddle Tennis hasn't been promoted more by clubs up here. In Chicago almost every club on the North Shore seemingly has 2-4+ courts plus a paddle hut which serves drinks and simple (marked up) food which has to do a long way toward the winter quarter's bottom line. Here in MSP, I think there are 5-6 clubs on the Minneapolis side with courts, but I have no idea how often they are used (every time I drive past Edina CC no one is on them).
H.P.S.

Jud_T

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2012, 01:43:00 PM »
If you simply have to have a full service restaurant, make it the best one in town at a fair price and you won't have to charge minimums to get butts in the seats...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

PCCraig

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2012, 01:51:23 PM »
If you simply have to have a full service restaurant, make it the best one in town at a fair price and you won't have to charge minimums to get butts in the seats...

Jud,

A club up here in Minneapolis called Minnesota Valley hired a well known local chef who ran a very popular farm-to-table restaurant. Most people in the local "foodie" community were surprised someone like him would go work at a "golf course" but the chef later explained that the pay was good, there was little or no personal risk for him (compared to running a smaller restaurant), and that he could support significantly more local farmers due to the larger demand.

It's an interesting business descision if the club needs a full service restaurant/banquet hall, and one I'm surprised more don't act on. Imagine one of the North Shore Chicago clubs hiring a sous chef from Alinea, the Publican, or ge? Burgers and salads in the grill room, then more interesting fare in the dining room.
H.P.S.

Jud_T

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2012, 01:56:25 PM »
That's the point Pat.  In major metro areas, there is simply too much top notch competition these days for traditional boring club food to compete.  In the past 10-20 years the depth of top quality restaurants at all price points has increased dramatically.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 07:43:14 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

PCCraig

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2012, 02:05:57 PM »
That's the point Pat.  In major metro areas, there is simply too much top notch competition these days for traditional boring club food to compete.  Just in the past 10-20 years the depth of top quality restaurants at all price points has increased dramatically.

Yep, exactly. So why clubs don't bring top quality talent in house is beyond me. It's not like chefs have huge, unaffordable salaries. Of course it might be a tough sell for most as the North Shore (or wherever) club market isn't exactly high profile in the culinary world.
H.P.S.

Dave McCollum

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2012, 04:09:53 PM »
Here’s an alternative view:

I only know about the public side, or as some in the biz like to call us, semi-private.  F&B is a huge challenge.  I read once that no bar and restaurant would survive on the normal traffic generated by a golf course or club, nominally, maximum traffic of 24 to 30 people per hour, most of them not eating.  We manage by smoke and mirrors and every trick we can muster.  Still, it’s a good year when we break the food even and make a bit of money on the bar.  As noted here, there is no way to staff a full service F&B operation on a year around basis (or even daily) without subsidies, at least in a partial-year golf climate (8-9 months here).   It’s all about managing the labor costs.  And having a very flexible operation depending on the season and weather.  In our case, we operate using multiple personalities throughout the year:  fine dining is limited to events; we close the kitchen during the winter and weather days; and most of the season limit the food to pub fare and daily specials.  Everyone is cross trained.  Pros bartend on mild winter days (surprise!) if other staffers are unavailable; bartenders cook; cooks bartend.  It’s very casual and, at times, inconsistent despite our best efforts and guesses.  We keep the kitchen clean and fire it up as needed.  It works, but is not a model I would recommend for anyone but our golfers who and are unwilling to pay significantly more to reserve the right to have a light meal whenever they want, so they live with it.

The weather forecast is a quick key on every computer/cash register.

Idle thoughts on design:
   
Every club is different, of course.  We pretty much concentrate on the golf and keep everything else as simple as we can.  I really don’t know why more clubhouses aren’t run like little pubs during the marginal weather seasons.   One bartender that can pop behind the bar and make a sandwich, grill a burger, or sell a few beers or a green fee.  Most houses aren’t designed for such flexibility to scale the service to the traffic.  To me, it seems like a no-brainer, but I’m always amazed when I stumble on clubhouse that can efficiently serve a few hearty golfers on a blustery early spring day and a large outing at the height of the season.  Why is this so rare, especially in the States?  Everyone in golf knows that it is a totally weather-related business.  Yet, facilities seem to be designed for a perfect world that happens for only a few months of every year.

I’m not as well traveled as most here.  Some of the best clubhouses I’ve seen are in Scotland at places like Crail, Brora, Dornoch, Elie, Macrihanish, North Berwick, etc.  I was in Ireland last October and the big, fancy clubhouses were deserted and, no doubt, leaking money at a good clip.  Some are probably longing for the old days.

Tim Nugent

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2012, 04:33:39 PM »
The F&B Operations at 90%+ of all private clubs are money losers.  Minimums are instituted to:
1. Retain staff
2. try to make the F&B Operation run at a break even

Think of a private club in the following fashion: a a member; you're trying to run the follwoing SIX (6) businesses at a break even or slight profit (so your dues/minimums don't have sto be increased)

A. A Golf Course
B. A pro/equipment shop
C. A driving range
D. Amusement cars (golf carts)
E. Restaurant
F. Management to oversee and run A-E above

Item F generates NO REVENUE and is 100% expense, so the revenue to pay for F needs to be found in A-E.  Item E traditionally has the highest costs (labor and cost of goods) for the lowest return.  Net profit in the F&B business is 10% of sales if you do everything correctly and have honest employees who don't steal. 

How many of you on the Board want to invest in the restaurant business? Not many as most don't survive, so here you have a restaurant forced to survive by 300 customers, so how do you make the numbers work - minimums.


Bruce, you forgot G and H
G. Commercial Landscape maintenance company
H. Equipment maintenance and repair shop.
Coasting is a downhill process

jeffwarne

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2012, 04:40:21 PM »
I love playing Southampton on a nice day once they're "closed" and there's a bartender and a self serve crock of chili or soup and crackers.

Why it ever became more than this everywhere is beyond me.
And frankly you could leave the beer in a cooler with self sign chits.
Palmetto had it about right with a hot dog machine and beer cooler in the back of the pro shop

So much crap has been piled onto golf operations in the name of impressing one's guests.
but that goes for golf courses too.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Chris Kane

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2012, 04:45:01 PM »
Agree with this Jeff - last time I played at Royal Melbourne we finished around 6.30, after the clubhouse had closed for the day. They have an honour bar set up in a small room in the corner of the clubhouse, where we picked up a few beers and sat on some deck chairs overlooking the course.

The experience was no less than had the bar been open, and it cost the club nothing.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2012, 06:32:25 PM »
In the Chicago area, ca. 1917, no one seems to have cared about restaurant minimums as the top 22 clubs were rolling in the clover.
Here's an excerpt from an article of that "Golden" era, and the dollars they are talking about  are roughly 20 to 1 today:

The assets of South Shore are $1,357,310.22. The assets of Lake Shore are $442,643.18. The assets of Glen View are $336,894.73. The assets of the Chicago Golf Club are $187,886.70; the assets of Midlothian are $166,049.94, of Exmoor they are $200,966.08, and of Onwentsia they are $45,739.40. I think if we state a few figures baldly, just like that, we get the worst over in the way of surprise and may then after a short interval proceed calmly upon our further inspection. The first three of those improvised sets of figures are in their proper order at the top; after that we have just selected a few, but there are others in between. Now there is the land, that land which comes to be reckoned so much in value now. South Shore sets its land as being worth 479 thousand dollars, Glen View's is 170 thousand, Edgewater's 132 thousand, Beverly's 157 thousand, Westmoreland's 128 thousand, and so on. Look then at the buildings. The invincible South Shore has them at 670 thousand, and there is the Chicago club at 182 thousand. If it is a matter of investments Edgewater comes in the winner with twelve thousand dollars, and for "cash and deposits" Beverly, if need arose, could finger 22 thousand quickly, as no other club could do in quite the same way according to the sheet. But wha tit comes to is, that all in all and at a casual reckoning—for an exact one is beyond me—these twenty-two clubs have something like five million dollars of goods and cash among them. They have considerable liabilities; it could not be otherwise. But yet they have mighty surpluses. Soaring South Shore has its 309 thousand, and GlenView its 198 thousand. There is Westmoreland with 129 thousand, and Ravisloe with 126 thousand, Exmoor with 108 thousand, Indian Hill with 85 thousand, and Idlewild with 81 thousand. These are soothing considerations for committees and treasurers. Here are no wolves at the doors of the clubs; want is not in sight. I look upon the case of Riverside. The sheet returns its number of members at only 79, and the surplus at 36 thousand dollars and a little more. Only one of the magnificent twenty-two announces a deficit, and there is a reason for it, while that deficit is such a slender thing that you or I might pay it off and feel not much the poorer. Perhaps, then, we should not mention the club that has it. When we come to incomes and expenditures there are some pretty considerations for us. South Shore gathers in its 266 thousand dollars, of which 153 thousand are from dues and 76 thousand from guests' privileges. (I am fast tiring now of writing down that word "thousand," so continually; henceforth it must be understood.) Beverly has 60, Lake Shore 53, Onwentsia 46, Exmoor 42, Ravisloe 40, and the least of the group is Riverside with nearly six and a half. (After this, and looking ahead, I think I shall leave South Shore out of the reckoning; it seems to spoil the others!) The clubhouse expenses of Glen View are 16 thousand, of Onwentsia 15, of Exmoor 11 and Flossmoor 10. Exmoor spends 22 thousand on the maintenance of its grounds, Onwentsia 20 and the Chicago Golf Club 17. Exmoor puts down 5 thousand for entertainment and prizes and 2 for professional and caddies. Many of the others are from a thousand dollars up for prizes and the like. In all this there is a great story of valuable property upon which presidents and executives and members may gaze with sublime satisfaction. There is a romance of income which must be pleasing to all concerned. Possessions, present and increasing, are fine things. But, so far as we do not see the members waxing corporeally fat on any of it; their pleasures have not been indicated as very material. Their minds may be pleased with what they have, but there is, so far, little effect upon their palates and the internal mechanism away down their alimentary canals. In the "Departmental Accounts," however, there is a glorious revelation. It is not all saving and straining and going without things with the members of the clubs of the Chicago District Golf Association. Here is no asceticism. It appears that they eat, drink, smoke and be happy,and that the executives enter grandly into this excellent scheme, so much so that in all but one* of the clubs which make returns there is a loss shown on the restaurant account! Never was there so much splendour in loss as this. If we must have a loss anywhere, for the sake of the gods and our own well-being gentlemen, let us have it in the restaurant. Let the members, if need be, have a little more than what they seem to pay for. Take it out of the grounds, take it out of the staff, take it out of the rooms and cottages or wherever you please, but give us a little extra for ourselves in the restaurant. This is a most commendable loss. May it continue. Long live the restaurant deficit! Down with the profiteers of the golf club kitchens! Glory to South Shore for its loss of twenty-nine thousand, to Lake Shore for its loss of eleven, to Ravisloe and Skokie for their fives, and Exmoor for its six. We would not have them earn a penny from the plates of their happy golfers. I would like to continue with an examination of more of these amazing figures; but they are overpowering. The bigness of Chicago golf seems to swell and swell, and one wonders what may become of it. We are confused in the thousands and the millions. But one idea remains above them all. Here is our establishment and our fabric. Some thin-minded persons sometimes have said that golf and its kindred associations out of doors are but the whims of an age, and that they will pass. No, they will not pass. Here is the evidence of it. There is an old saying that 'money talks.' Here it is talking for the great game. Here are strength and firmness and endurance. If there are trials to come, as they tell us from the White House and other places, that rich America even shall feel the pinch, and that some of our blessings may be taken from us, I shall in dark moments look, perhaps, on this table of stupendous figures, and shall be comforted.

*The one profitable club was most likely Onwentsia. At the time it was considered to be the largest golf club in the world, with 4 golf courses. It took in over 170k in its restaurants in 1917.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2012, 03:06:39 PM »
Another take on the irritations of a poorly thought out minmum.

An elderly Member died, his son inherited the membership, he received his fathers last account for dues, cart fees and client guests etc.

There was also a figure for $300 outstanding, as he had not paid up the six monthly Minimum F&B stipend prior to his demise. The Club decided to dun the new member. The putative new member told the club he would resign and to send him a check for his fifty percent of the current admission fee, deduct the debt and advised them he felt that it was not the sort of club for him.

Bob

Scott Stearns

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2012, 10:19:33 PM »
i did some research and found the the club minimim was actually started at Rome C.C. may years ago.

It seems there was a member there named Minimus, who bought all his stuff at an off-course pro shop, kept his clubs in his chariot, never took a caddie and kept a wine skin in his golf bag.  He also played in 6 weekly pro-ams per summer and whenever he lost a bet, he ordered a double Hemlock at the bar, to be charged to the winner.

The members created a monthly charge to be paid by those not carrying their share of the F and B overhead and named it the Minimum in his honor. 

Can't get a date but it was way B.C.--before carts....

Bill_McBride

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2012, 10:42:28 PM »
I love playing Southampton on a nice day once they're "closed" and there's a bartender and a self serve crock of chili or soup and crackers.

Why it ever became more than this everywhere is beyond me.
And frankly you could leave the beer in a cooler with self sign chits.
Palmetto had it about right with a hot dog machine and beer cooler in the back of the pro shop

So much crap has been piled onto golf operations in the name of impressing one's guests.
but that goes for golf courses too.

I love Palmetto.   It's the model.   

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2012, 04:37:00 AM »
i did some research and found the the club minimim was actually started at Rome C.C. may years ago.

It seems there was a member there named Minimus, who bought all his stuff at an off-course pro shop, kept his clubs in his chariot, never took a caddie and kept a wine skin in his golf bag.  He also played in 6 weekly pro-ams per summer and whenever he lost a bet, he ordered a double Hemlock at the bar, to be charged to the winner.

The members created a monthly charge to be paid by those not carrying their share of the F and B overhead and named it the Minimum in his honor. 

Can't get a date but it was way B.C.--before carts....

Scott,

if enough of the membership want F&B then there should be enough profit for it to survive which leads me to think that it is a majority financing the minorities pastime. Here in the UK many clubs are significantly cheaper F&B wise than external venues so some subsidising from the general coffers does occur. I do not get the impression that F&B is cheaper in the US clubs so why the need to subsidise?

Jon

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2012, 10:20:22 AM »
its a minority that dont meet the minimum--by definition.  if a majority didnt want to hit it, they would force change.

Yanks are different than UK clubs--their famiilies use the club a great deal, and they view the club as an alternative to a better than average restaurant.  if food quality is below a good restaurant in theor town, use plummets.  Yanks want a menu with 5-10 different or so entrees on it 5-6 nights per week for example.  a carvery table lunch would go unused at a US family club.

The operaton doesnt run at a profit because the fixed costs (minimum staffing requirement) of this cant be met with an audience of 300 families.   

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2012, 02:38:23 PM »
Scott,

All your points concern an outlook that I do not comprehend but I suspect that is one of the cultural differences between the UK and USA. Here members of a club are most likely to use the facilities of the club because it is there club. It helps if the food and the beer are good but it is not the deal breaker it would seem to be in the US.

To me it seems that you either look to make the F&B pay for itself which may include opening it up to outside business and functions which is what many clubs have done.
Or do the above and franchise the F&B out.

Or cover the running costs of the F&B in through the membership (included in the yearly fee) and then sell at cost plus a small margin so as to make it very good value (this is what many clubs do in the UK).

That members would on the one side expect a comprehensive F&B at their club but then use a restaurant in the town because it was better just baffles me.

Jon

Scott Stearns

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Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2012, 02:58:06 PM »
this model is unique to the US and perhaps Japan.  totally different mindset than the UK.  idea of allowing visitors in the US is extremely unpopular--here courses are either public or closed to visitors for the most part. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2012, 03:00:26 PM »
Mike,

I think it started when clubs ceased being the epicenter or focal point of social activity in communities.

It was reinforced when clubs examined their utilization patterns and didn't quite understand that a generational shift in utilization was taking place.

Hence, in an effort to force utilization, minimums were created.

Counter intuitively, when clubs serve more meals, they tend to lose more money.

Clubs should do away with minimums and ratchet down and streamline food service.

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2012, 05:35:58 PM »
Disagree.  Clubs should figure out what their members are willing to pay for (not what they want) and provide same.  Its different at a family club then it is at a golf-only limited membership facility.  Taxing the folks who dont get the joke on supporting their club is ok by me. 

There is a place for high-food, high course conditioning.  its a small niche, but it exists.   

Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2012, 06:11:12 PM »
Part of the responsibility, though, for driving f&b needs to go to club management.

Some clubs really do it right.   At my parents club, on pasta night or thursday summer cookouts, you can't get a table.   (ironically, with this type of creativity, you don't need minimums and these profit can help absorb losses at non-peak times.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where did it start - Clubhouse Minimums?
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2012, 07:34:17 PM »
Thanks for the insight Scott. This way of thinking is something very new to me. Interesting but I hope it does not catch on here in Scotland.

Jon

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