[Scott Warren]

Mike,

I wouldn't mind a bet that this came about in conjunction with longer rounds. If I can manage five hours away from home in the weekend for golf and a round takes three hours, I'm going to spend more in he house than if a round takes 4h30.

Chris K,

Bonnie Doon has the same arrangement as you describe. No dinner outside of functions and one Friday night a month in summer, quality lunch options every day, the clubhouse minimum is also there to use for on course purchases from the drinks/food cart.

Ours is only $300pa, so a beer a week. You'd have to be tight to take issue with that, IMO.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I also find it dues by another name for those who do not use the club very often. Yes it sounds good to ay all the good things it does. I still do not like it. Please just have a dues level that allows the club to break even and bill it. It is also helping maintain a part of the club that loses money 99.9% of the time. Actually. for most of my post divorce life, I never have trouble meeting these minimums when for many a meal is taken at the club.

[Mark Chaplin]

Royal Sydney has a bottle shop on site.

[Sean_A]

I don't know how minimums started in the US, but at my club only a few years ago a minimum of £50 was instituted, although members can put as much money as they want on the card and it doesn't zero out at the end of the year.  It was charged for two years as a way to get cash up front to pay for the installation of a card system - so members don't have to spend cash in the house.  I can understand the idea behind a card as its easier to keep track of expenditure, stock and to therefore budget.  It also reduces the chances of cash going missing.  The club has since dropped the minimum.  To be honest, I wouldn't mind if a minimum of say £150 p.a. was required, but I would be dead set against any sort of quarterly minimum approaching anything like £250 - essentially the same price as the golf dues.  It smacks too much of the powers that be dictating where members will spend their money.  It would be especially frustrating if the food was mediocre.   

Ciao

[Niall C]

This is a particular pet peeve of mine. When you see a minimum approaching a couple of thousand dollars a year you realize that Food and Beverage is more important to some Club directors than being a golf club. At one time, Club dining was not a full time service and was probably less expensive than the local restaurants, today it is equally or more expensive. One particular ploy is to charge a 15% Service Fee with the money going to the General Fund, not to the employees. Can someone let me know of any Club that does not have a F&B deficit?

Bob

Bob

Couldn't agree more. While the scale of the average minimum in this country is much more modest (as are the subs I would imagine) the idea is simply wrong. As you infer the primary business is as a golf club not a restaurant. I'm hoping that the current need for austerity might encourage a good few more clubs to remember what they are about.

Sean

Moray GC have had a card system the last couple of years and have been debating whether its worthwhile and whether it could be used for other things. Given the modest turnover in F&B I doubt they will keep it going especially as the food is already franchised out.
 Niall

[Jeff_Mingay]

I don't know where it started, but the whole point of the clubhouse minimum is for the minority who don't dine at the club to subsidize the majority who do/did ... and to front some cash to an operation that almost inevitably loses money!

My dad has been in the insurance business for many years. He's handled insurance for a number of golf clubs over the years, NONE of which purchase business interuption insurance. Why? There's no business to interupt!

[Rob_Waldron]

From an operations point of view unused F&B minimums serve to offset labor costs. At most clubs the F&B operation is open for more hours than can truly be justified from a financial standpoint. However members want to see food service available for breakfast before their early morning rounds and the bar open until the wee hours regardless of how many people actually take advantage of the long hours. When analyzing the financial statements of the F&B operation I always use F&B minimums as an offset to labor costs as opposed to income in a general fund. In the real world restaurants with a small captive audience such as what is experienced at private clubs would never consider opening for the amount of hours of a priveat club. However a as long as a club insists on providing the convenience to the membership with extended hours of operation the food minimums are a necessary evil. 

[Mark Johnson]

Mike,

I wouldn't mind a bet that this came about in conjunction with longer rounds. If I can manage five hours away from home in the weekend for golf and a round takes three hours, I'm going to spend more in he house than if a round takes 4h30.

Chris K,

Bonnie Doon has the same arrangement as you describe. No dinner outside of functions and one Friday night a month in summer, quality lunch options every day, the clubhouse minimum is also there to use for on course purchases from the drinks/food cart.

Ours is only $300pa, so a beer a week. You'd have to be tight to take issue with that, IMO.

Keep in mind that at many places, drinks outside the dining  and in some places bar food is excluded from the minimums.

[Ed Brzezowski]

I don't know where it started, but the whole point of the clubhouse minimum is for the minority who don't dine at the club to subsidize the majority who do/did ... and to front some cash to an operation that almost inevitably loses money!

My dad has been in the insurance business for many years. He's handled insurance for a number of golf clubs over the years, NONE of which purchase business interuption insurance. Why? There's no business to interupt!

WOW  that is dangerous, are clubs in your area impervious to weather?? I sell the stuff too and always include the coverage. Ask your Dad what a club could lose if a wedding or big event was lost due to a power outage.

[Jerry Kluger]

My father ran private country clubs and had been in the hotel and catering business before that.  He said that the F & B minimum was needed in the offseason in order pay for the essential staff during the slow months.  There are a number of critical positions in the kitchen and when you have employees who efficiently put out quality food then you need to keep them 12 months in the year.  If you let them go during the offseason you never know who you will get the next year and it will take them a while to get up to speed.   

[JMEvensky]

While not a fan of the minimum I was hoping for more historic perspective, we know how people feel about it today but when did we slide down this slippery slope?

The first time a Board realized that,absent forced dining,the club's F/B operation was a black hole.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I would love it to be yearly, but most have gone to quarterly minimums. And the amount is high at some clubs.  I wish it were 50 pounds a quarter.

[Mike_Trenham]

The first time a Board realized that,absent forced dining,the club's F/B operation was a black hole.
[/quote]

Yes probably right but does anyone know which club it was or the era this became standard.

[Mike_Trenham]

Members are able to spend their advance on wine, so you see lots of members walking out of the club with a couple of cases towards the end of the year!

Legend around here is there are members at a club that take home raw steaks at the end of their minimum period.

[Mark Chaplin]

Deal is pretty standard for UK clubs with a bar card scheme. Members pay a mandatory £100 onto their card each year but get an additional 10% credit, all subsequent card deposits get the same discount. However if you do not spend the mandatory amount you lose it at the end of the year.

[PCCraig]

Does anyone know how Club's come up with their minimum figures for F&B? Is it just effectively the minimum amount required to keep the F&B operations running/the # of members?

I've heard some outrageous figures for minimums (even at "national" clubs), but for the most part I've seen them to be somewhat reasonable as long as the member uses the club and has a beer/cocktail after each round and the occasional lunch.

[Jud_T]

The question is where does it end...and the answer is simple economics...

[Jeff Shelman]

Pat,

I think it depends on the club. There are probably some clubs where the minimum gets set/raised as need to cover expenses.

Other more modest places, changing the minimum is only done after serious discussion/consideration.

At a time when some clubs are very concerned about dues increase, etc., chasing members away, they aren't as likely to make a change.

[Dave Givnish]

I remember that my parents' club got a food minimum in the early 70's, which is right about when they went into debt to build a new clubhouse. 

We don't have a food minimum at our golf club now.  The dining room is open for lunch and is only open for dinner once a week. 

Our Board saw a survey of the food and beverage results for about 20 clubs in the Phoenix area for 2011.  No club made money.  The ones with big catering operations came somewhat close to breaking even.  We were fortunate that we only lost about $50k.  The big hitter in the group lost over $700,000 - and they were at the top of the dues pile as well.

A food minimum would be close to a deal killer for me in terms of joining a club.  Make it part of the dues.

[Jud_T]

Make it part of the dues.

Agreed.  As far as I'm concerned don't give me any hidden costs, put it all in the dues.  If you have to nickel and dime members for range balls, lockers, food minimums, caddie christmas fund etc. to get to the REAL cost you probably are setting yourself up for a problem down the road...

[jeffwarne]

My father ran private country clubs and had been in the hotel and catering business before that.  He said that the F & B minimum was needed in the offseason in order pay for the essential staff during the slow months.  There are a number of critical positions in the kitchen and when you have employees who efficiently put out quality food then you need to keep them 12 months in the year.  If you let them go during the offseason you never know who you will get the next year and it will take them a while to get up to speed.   

Jerry,
the same could be said for all seasonal staff.
The bottom line is if you want a restaurant at a golf course, you have to pay for it.
It doesn't pay for itself, unless you use very creative accounting.
It can be higher dues ,assessments, or minimums, or you can just have a sandwich/snack bar.
I simply cringe everytime I hear about a GCAer saying what a great meal or
how great the wine list is at a particular club.
Clubs such as that tend to have 3rd owners

[JMEvensky]

I have a feeling that the minimum at my club is relatively high, but at least it includes drinks.  I never have a problem hitting it.  I seem to hit it by the end of May.  Our chef is excellent and the food is quite good, so my family and I eat there a lot on those well deserved number nights when my wife doesn't feel like cooking, and it doesn't take too many family nights out to hit the minimum.

I also think we do a decent job of keeping costs down.  We don't have a regular, full breakfast served every day (usually just special events, etc.); there's a (free) continental breakfast out all the time, instead.  And frankly, since there's no tip/service charge on food or beverage, that $11 hamburger is basically a $9.75 hamburger with tip, and that $5 beer is basically a $4.25 beer, etc. etc., so on an apples to apples basis, the prices are reasonable (or at least not outrageous), IMO....

Ghost,if the food is good and the costs are kept down,why does your club need a minimum?

BTW--clubs that allow liquor to be used against the minimum are suicidal.

[Dan Boerger]

Mike - Good question. I belong to a club with $150 quarterly minimum and it includes booze. I have never come close to that number as our club is a key part of our social life, entertaining and dining experiences. But here's the rub: if your food is mediocre (or worse) you will inevitably need to raise your minimums, narrow your dining option times, or simply raise dues in other areas.

[David Egan]

I have a feeling that the minimum at my club is relatively high, but at least it includes drinks.  I never have a problem hitting it.  I seem to hit it by the end of May.  Our chef is excellent and the food is quite good, so my family and I eat there a lot on those well deserved number nights when my wife doesn't feel like cooking, and it doesn't take too many family nights out to hit the minimum.

I also think we do a decent job of keeping costs down.  We don't have a regular, full breakfast served every day (usually just special events, etc.); there's a (free) continental breakfast out all the time, instead.  And frankly, since there's no tip/service charge on food or beverage, that $11 hamburger is basically a $9.75 hamburger with tip, and that $5 beer is basically a $4.25 beer, etc. etc., so on an apples to apples basis, the prices are reasonable (or at least not outrageous), IMO....

I'm pretty sure ours is high, too.  However,  it's a club usage fee so it includes everything - food, drink, caddies, guest fees, pro shop stuff, etc. - and is not very hard to hit.  I can't imagine that many guys are running in there late in the year to hit the minimum.  It's happened to me a couple times but I'm also one of the younger members so my life isn't exactly conducive to hanging out at the club.  Two young  children make  weekend golf in the suburbs very difficult.  I just consider it another dues payment and I'm fine paying it if it means being part of that club.

[Bruce Katona]

The F&B Operations at 90%+ of all private clubs are money losers.  Minimums are instituted to:
1. Retain staff
2. try to make the F&B Operation run at a break even

Think of a private club in the following fashion: a a member; you're trying to run the follwoing SIX (6) businesses at a break even or slight profit (so your dues/minimums don't have sto be increased)

A. A Golf Course
B. A pro/equipment shop
C. A driving range
D. Amusement cars (golf carts)
E. Restaurant
F. Management to oversee and run A-E above

Item F generates NO REVENUE and is 100% expense, so the revenue to pay for F needs to be found in A-E.  Item E traditionally has the highest costs (labor and cost of goods) for the lowest return.  Net profit in the F&B business is 10% of sales if you do everything correctly and have honest employees who don't steal. 

How many of you on the Board want to invest in the restaurant business? Not many as most don't survive, so here you have a restaurant forced to survive by 300 customers, so how do you make the numbers work - minimums.

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