The Old 5th at Pebble Beach

[Patrick_Mucci]

William,

Given the site, and a blank canvas, why couldn't a great hole have been built ?

Are you saying that Hanse, C&C, Doak and others couldn't have designed a great hole ?

[William_G]

Patrick,

thanks for the question, and Happy Valentines Day

the laws of the California Coast Commision are very intolerant of change.

I don't think it was a blank canvas in that you had pre-existing homes which were puchased, torn down and replaced with new homes and a golf hole

I'm glad they took it on whoever designed it...and every designer is subject to criticism...which is why "critic" can be a four-letter word

[Patrick_Mucci]

William,

Were the homes there when PBGC acquired the land or afterward ?

I don't see the CCC as an impediment to greatness if they permitted mediocrity.

I wonder, if the tee was left of the 4th green if Gib's reverse Redan, ala The Creek, would have been a possibility

[cary lichtenstein]

I hated that hole, so frigging narrow, I couldn't hit my draw cuz of trees on the right. Probably the hardest hole on the course for me. Doubles

[William_G]

I think the homes were there when purchased

glad the PBC was able to buy, tear down and rebuild with a golf hole. albeit not a great hole

I think you are wrong in your opinon about the CCC, lol

[Patrick_Mucci]

William,

If the CCC permited a mediocre hole, what makes you think that they would have prohibited a good to great hole ?

[William_G]

Patrick,

The CCC is not into greatness but mediocrity of design...they were most likely reluctant to approve a golf hole at all.

This iconic Frank Lloyd Wright home at the south end of Carmel Beach would never happen today.



Given the existing hole how would one re-design it or remodel it into potential greatness?

[Patrick_Mucci]

William,

That probably has more to do with the offset than the interior design

I think the houses were built after the old 5th was abandoned.

As to the new 5th, that green is about as close to the Ocean as you can get.
Just look at it on "Google Earth"

I think the plans to sell the lots might have had something to do with the ability to design a better hole.
But perhaps someone can provide the chronology of the homes, the old and new 5th hole

[Adam Clayman]

Re CCC;

How the company was able to pull this off, environmentally, is probably worthy of an in-depth investigation.

William, I'm not following to well. Are you saying the Schwab and Allen(?) houses were already there?

[Matthew Petersen]

William,

Were the homes there when PBGC acquired the land or afterward ?

I don't see the CCC as an impediment to greatness if they permitted mediocrity.

I wonder, if the tee was left of the 4th green if Gib's reverse Redan, ala The Creek, would have been a possibility

The back tees basically are left of the 4th green already. I suppose they could have gone slightly further back but the back tee is already about 190 (blue tee, not talking about US open tees), which kinds of puts in a sweet spot between the length of 17 (about 180) and 12 (about 200).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mathew,

I meant further left, left of the road, up near the old hole

[Matthew Petersen]

Ah, that is an interesting idea, Pat. I suppose one of the issues there was leaving ample real estate for the westernmost of the two homes.

That and perhaps amateurs who would have complained about why the entire hole wasn't along the coastline.

[JWL]

Patrick
Great is in the eye of the beholder....but regarding the 5th hole at PB, the only thing that could possibly change from what you presently see is a different green.   Everything else would be basically the same, regardless of the name of the architect.   The extent of the canvas was fixed and wasn't going to change...in fact, a lot of debate transpired to get the hole as long as it is, due to an aging, crumbling CA oak that stood about where the back of the green presently is located.   The CCC was adamant that the tree has to stay.    The limbs were laying on the ground and crumbling.   Fortunately, we were able to have it removed to maximize the length, plus add a championship tee over the ravine, so that we could avoid as much as possible duplicating another short par 3 in the same direction as 7.    Could a better green have been designed there...possibly, but the slope of the natural ground did limit the possibilities.   Sorry you don't like it.

[William_G]

Re CCC;

How the company was able to pull this off, environmentally, is probably worthy of an in-depth investigation.

William, I'm not following to well. Are you saying the Schwab and Allen(?) houses were already there?

no other houses were there

[Bob_Huntley]

Patrick
Great is in the eye of the beholder....but regarding the 5th hole at PB, the only thing that could possibly change from what you presently see is a different green.   Everything else would be basically the same, regardless of the name of the architect.   The extent of the canvas was fixed and wasn't going to change...in fact, a lot of debate transpired to get the hole as long as it is, due to an aging, crumbling CA oak that stood about where the back of the green presently is located.   The CCC was adamant that the tree has to stay.    The limbs were laying on the ground and crumbling.   Fortunately, we were able to have it removed to maximize the length, plus add a championship tee over the ravine, so that we could avoid as much as possible duplicating another short par 3 in the same direction as 7.    Could a better green have been designed there...possibly, but the slope of the natural ground did limit the possibilities.   Sorry you don't like it.

JWL,

Here is something about the genesis of the modern fifth hole. Morse sold the the lot to the Jenkins family eons ago and over the years Sam Morse attempted to buy it back. It wasn't until the 1990s that the parcel be was offered for sale. The sale was completed but it was mooted that the deal was assisted by two prominent businessmen agreeing to buy the land where their two houses now stand. Allthough I thought the old fiifth was a much tougher hole  I cannot see why all the fuss about the new except for the walk back to the sixth tee.

http://www.pebblebeach.com/golf/pebble-beach-golf-links/course-history/new-5th-hole

[Bob_Huntley]

When it comes to Pebble Beach properties there is always a bit of a buzz when the price becomes somewhat fanciful.

Some of the realtors claims are sometimes ingenuous. In the ad below it states that Gene Hackman lived in the house which is quite untrue. He did buy it, hired an archtect and designer but sold the place before any work was done and bought property in Montecito.
Bob.

  http://www.businessinsider.com/pebble-beach-mansion-79-million-2012-4?op=1

[JWL]

Bob
You are exactly correct about the land agreement before the land actually sold.   PBC told us that Morse always wanted to construct the par 3 along the coastline but the triangular piece of land piece of land was sold and Morse couldn't do as he desired.   So the PBC finally had the opportunity to build the Oceanside par 3 and sell the remainder of the land to Charles Schwab and a big car dealer in SF, I think...anyway, they knew the hole would be expensive due to the CCC requirement on slope stabilization, and the land sale was an important component to the project.   I actually stayed in the original house during the design phase during the Stocker Cup week..either the first or second Stocker Cup, back when PB was part of the tournament.  I stayed with a couple of my golfing buddies including Stan Humphries, the former SD QB.
I don't particularly like the walk back up to 6, which was discussed considerably, but the additional up close view of Stillwater Cover was deemed to more than offset that walk.   The former hole was generally considered the worst hole on the course, for several reasons by PBC.

[Greg Tallman]

Jim,

Rather than bunkers at the back left why not allow the green to fall away and have a fairway cut spill all the way down to the beginning of the 6th fairway?

You know I loves me some run off areas and closely mown chipping areas 

[JWL]

GT
I like that idea, however, there were several trees behind the green, and taking down a tree almost took an act of Congress.
I think I would have preferred a design similar to the 4th hole at Riviera, but reversed.   I think the land tilt was pretty similar and it would have been an interesting shot to play away from the pin to get it close.   We wouldn't have been able to get as much length as Riviera has...the 190 length from the championship tee adjacent to the 4th green was only 190 yards as I recall, and wouldn't be as demanding as the Riviera 4th.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

JWL,

Others said they didn't like it, not me.

We're you restricted in terms of the homesite lots ?


Great is in the eye of the beholder....but regarding the 5th hole at PB, the only thing that could possibly change from what you presently see is a different green.   Everything else would be basically the same, regardless of the name of the architect.   The extent of the canvas was fixed and wasn't going to change...in fact, a lot of debate transpired to get the hole as long as it is, due to an aging, crumbling CA oak that stood about where the back of the green presently is located.   The CCC was adamant that the tree has to stay.    The limbs were laying on the ground and crumbling.   Fortunately, we were able to have it removed to maximize the length, plus add a championship tee over the ravine, so that we could avoid as much as possible duplicating another short par 3 in the same direction as 7.    Could a better green have been designed there...possibly, but the slope of the natural ground did limit the possibilities.   Sorry you don't like it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Re CCC;

How the company was able to pull this off, environmentally, is probably worthy of an in-depth investigation.

William, I'm not following to well. Are you saying the Schwab and Allen(?) houses were already there?

no other houses were there

William,

Are you sure that/those house/homes wasn't/weren't part of the land acquired by PBC ?

It was my understanding that the entire parcel was acquired by PBC

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob & JWL,

You seem to confirm what I had heard, namely that PBC bought the entire parcel and made the election to limit the land available for the par 3, due to the desire to sell off two choice lots.

So I go back to one of my original questions.

Had PBC not chosen to set aside land for two homesites, could a better hole have been designed ?

[Mark McKeever]

I guess there are positives and negatives associated with each.  The new one is on the oceanfront, but creates a walk back to the next tee.  The original hole didn't have that issue but probably was not as "scenic". 

Mark

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob & JWL,

You seem to confirm what I had heard, namely that PBC bought the entire parcel and made the election to limit the land available for the par 3, due to the desire to sell off two choice lots.

So I go back to one of my original questions.

Had PBC not chosen to set aside land for two homesites, could a better hole have been designed ?

Pat,

I am not sure if you have seen the two houses in question, if you had you, will see that they are far to the left of the current hole. To use any part of the land on which their houses are situated would certainly have moved the hole away from the proximity of water. Had they used  it, the walk to the sixth green would have been more palatable.

There was no doubt that some fiduciary considerations were a big part of the transaction.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

Picture a tee for # 5, somewhere along the corridor for the old 5th, from the tee to yards in front of the old tee, with the location of the green at approximately it's current site.

Could a drop par 3 or reverse Redan have been created ?