The Old 5th at Pebble Beach

[Joe Leenheer]

What about leaving the old 5 and adding the new 5.  I liked the new 5, but the "wormhole" sounds really cool.  Would you be disappointed if you played one or the other?

or...how about playing from 4 tee to the new 5 green (or in that vicinity) as a par 4?....although then there would be only 17 holes which could raise some eyebrows....I would settle for playing 7 twice.

Either way, Mr. Nicklaus was given a heavy task tinkering with PB and I think he did a fine job.

[Sam Morrow]

What about leaving the old 5 and adding the new 5.  I liked the new 5, but the "wormhole" sounds really cool.  Would you be disappointed if you played one or the other?

or...how about playing from 4 tee to the new 5 green (or in that vicinity) as a par 4?....although then there would be only 17 holes which could raise some eyebrows....I would settle for playing 7 twice.

Either way, Mr. Nicklaus was given a heavy task tinkering with PB and I think he did a fine job.

Wouldn't going from 4 tee or 5 green be a par 5?

[Joe Leenheer]

What about leaving the old 5 and adding the new 5.  I liked the new 5, but the "wormhole" sounds really cool.  Would you be disappointed if you played one or the other?

or...how about playing from 4 tee to the new 5 green (or in that vicinity) as a par 4?....although then there would be only 17 holes which could raise some eyebrows....I would settle for playing 7 twice.

Either way, Mr. Nicklaus was given a heavy task tinkering with PB and I think he did a fine job.

Wouldn't going from 4 tee or 5 green be a par 5?

Would be about 530ish from the tips...(back tee for 5 is pretty close to 4 green)...probably would use the forward or 2nd tee on 4 as the back tee of the hybrid hole...would require a drive of about 260-290 which would leave you with 190 in...sounds like a good par 4 to me! :-)

[Matthew Essig]

The 4/5 combined hole would not be well received because of the huge gorge between the current 4 and 5 hole

[Joe Leenheer]

The 4/5 combined hole would not be well received because of the huge gorge between the current 4 and 5 hole

Why?  the gorge wouldn't come into play as your tee shot should play short of it.  The key would be making a green that accepted long shots.  I think it could have been a fun hole...(and they could have moved the green up a bit)

[Sam Morrow]

The 4/5 combined hole would not be well received because of the huge gorge between the current 4 and 5 hole

Why?  the gorge wouldn't come into play as your tee shot should play short of it.  The key would be making a green that accepted long shots.  I think it could have been a fun hole...(and they could have moved the green up a bit)

So you would have to lay-up short of the gorge?

[mike_beene]

You guys sound like a greens committee.Don't mess with the very good hole 4.

[Matthew Essig]

You guys sound like a greens committee.Don't mess with the very good hole 4.

Totally agree

[Sam Morrow]

You guys sound like a greens committee.Don't mess with the very good hole 4.

I'm still wondering how we got to making Pebble a 17 hole course, maybe they could rename it 18 Mile Drive.

[mike_beene]

Sam, they could put you in a van and drive you over to the Peter Hay course to play a par 3.Some would say that would have a negative effect on the flow.

[Sam Morrow]

Sam, they could put you in a van and drive you over to the Peter Hay course to play a par 3.Some would say that would have a negative effect on the flow.

Well for what they charge I'm not playing 17 holes.

[Martin Toal]

That huge retaining wall/bulkhead on the new hole is heinous.   Haven't noticed that before, a different camera angle perhaps?

(Haven't played Pebble since the new 5th was built.)

Bill what does heinous mean? Not heard that word before but it does not seem complimentary

Worse then egregious but not as bad as evil.

[Kalen Braley]

Before we forget....according to this article, the original concept of Pebble Beach was to have #5 be where it is today.

So can't we say that JN, merely "restored" Pebble! 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/1998/weekly/980202/gp0202/c.html

[Jason Thurman]

After digging through a history of Pebble Beach at a bookstore over lunch yesterday and finding zero pictures of the old 5th (in spite of the fact that the book had an entire section devoted to the decision to build and construction of the new hole), I did a Google Image search and found the above. First pic of the hole I've ever seen.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Whenever coverage shows the 5th at Pebble they talk about what a great hole Jack built and then talk about how awkward the old 5th was. The only time I've ever seen it was on the old Links 386 computer game. So the question is, what made the old 5th so bad? Does anyone have any pictures?

Thanks.

It was a dogleg par-3.  Nuff said.

[Matthew Petersen]

The new hole isn't "great" but I almost wouldn't want it to compete with the original great holes there. It is a pretty good hole in a very nice spot and that seems like enough.

It's not a hard hole, per se, but it's not easy. Sure, it's easy to bail out left and short, but the green is very quick sloping to the ocean and so that's a very tough place to get up and down from. It would be easier to do so from that front right bunker, but that's mostly in play when the hole is back right and to that hole location there's really no easy recovery option.

[Jason Thurman]

Any evaluation of the new 5th needs to take into account the circumstances of its design. There was really no flexibility for Nicklaus when he took on the project. The hole's corridor was already defined, and he really only had the option of building a mid-length seaside par 3.

With those restrictions in place, he built a very nice hole that's probably more scenic than anything else. It's a very good green, and the hole "fits" with the rest of the course really nicely in spite of any sixty yard walks that one has to take when they finish it. I'm not sure what could have been done on that section of the property to dramatically improve the hole without further disruption of the routing. Perhaps the ocean could've been more in play, but I'm not familiar enough with CCC regulations to know if that was even possible.

[Bob_Huntley]

If you back far enough into the GCA posts, you will see that a lot of people who played the old fifth felt that it was not necessarily a better hole
than the new. However it was much harder.

 Pete Galea speaks of the trees on the left of the hole but fails to mention that there was an arroyo behind them, from which it was impossible to recover. Many a round has been ruined by a mistake on the old fifth, one could say that the new does not provide anywhere near the degree of difficulty.

Bob

[Adam Clayman]

Jason, That picture doesn't do the old hole justice.

The uphill nature, and deep fronting bunker, were both menacing. Throw in the over hang of foliage coming from the left side, and even a fader was puckered to the max.   I once came there 2 under and left 2 over. A great and horrific hole.

All this was done for $4.5 million in revenue to the company. Considering the eyesores that have replaced what could've been sacred burial grounds, I'd say it was not worth it.  

I don't think 80 years of history, should be thrown under the bus, either, just because thats the way the course would've been routed, had Morse not refused the seller's ridiculous price.

It's an example of how a change in the formula, of using the best ground (coast), or breaking the "rules" in gca, can be serendipitous.  

Also, I was there when they cleared the corridor, before shaping. The shot looked like it could've incorporated the cliff's edge better by orienting the green differently. JN's "cut" green, just didn't look or feel natural, or cool, at all, once it was shaped in.

[Matthew Petersen]

FWIW, the walk back to 6 didn't bother me.

First, for whatever reason, I'm generally more bothered by a walk back in which you leave the previous green and head back along that hole's corridor than one where you head off to the tee and then more or less retrace your steps after hitting the tee shot. Doesn't make much sense, I know.

Secondly, it is a nice time for some reflection on what you're about to undertake. Pebble really does slowly unfold before you in that way--from the first glimpse of the ocean as you walk down 2, to heading out toward it on 3, to paying along the calmer waters of the cove on 4 and 5 ...

Someone earlier described the old 5th as one of those wormhole moments. I can see how that would have been the case. But the little walk from 5 to 6 (it's certainly the longest on the course, but it doesn't feel long so much as annoyingly uphill) gives you a moment to take a breath and ponder the unbelievable stretch of golf you're about to play. There's really nothing in the world like 6-10 at Pebble. It's kind of nice to have that moment to anticipate it.

[Matthew Rose]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJsYspLNQs4

1982 US Open highlight video. Jack plays (and birdies) the old 5th at 0:41 (but you only see the hole very briefly from green back to the tee).

[Robert Emmons]

Yes it was a dogleg par 3, but I kind of liked it...RHE

[JLahrman]

Never played the old hole, but FWIW here is the view from the tee on the new hole (apologies for the size, I know the scrolling is a no-no, but the larger size does provide a better view):



Not hard to hit it on the green. Hard to get it over to that hole location? Si senor.

[Adam Clayman]

FWIW, the walk back to 6 didn't bother me.

First, for whatever reason, I'm generally more bothered by a walk back in which you leave the previous green and head back along that hole's corridor than one where you head off to the tee and then more or less retrace your steps after hitting the tee shot. Doesn't make much sense, I know.

Secondly, it is a nice time for some reflection on what you're about to undertake. Pebble really does slowly unfold before you in that way--from the first glimpse of the ocean as you walk down 2, to heading out toward it on 3, to paying along the calmer waters of the cove on 4 and 5 ...

Someone earlier described the old 5th as one of those wormhole moments. I can see how that would have been the case. But the little walk from 5 to 6 (it's certainly the longest on the course, but it doesn't feel long so much as annoyingly uphill) gives you a moment to take a breath and ponder the unbelievable stretch of golf you're about to play. There's really nothing in the world like 6-10 at Pebble. It's kind of nice to have that moment to anticipate it.

Matthew, Not sure if you played the route, but, not bothering, isn't a replacement for how the old walked felt.

Under the canopy of trees, a water jug stood. Naturally, almost everyone would grab a drink. Then as you proceeded around the corner of the trees, the whole expanse would open up. Any confusion, or consternation you may have had turning your back on the cove, back on #5 tee, was more than amply made up for, by introducing this amazing picture that stood in front of you. With each step it would get closer and bigger.

That feeling, those moments, are so much more memorable, and satisfying, than "didn't bother me" could never hope to be.

[Gib_Papazian]

I find it endlessly amusing that Nicklaus built a par-3 that essentially requires a high-cut from the tee to reach a tucked pin. What a surprise - although one could make the argument the geometric orientation of the new hole fits the topography.

If Neal had gotten the commission instead, I would have been lobbying mightily for a modified version of #8 at Creek Club. That hole screams for a reverse-Redan if you ask me, but I do not absolutely hate it and it hardly puts me into a state of "WTF was his Bear-osity thinking?" It is just okay - attractive visually, but am I the only one who feels it is too small in terms of scale? It struck me as just a tick too dainty and cute, especially because the daintiest and cutest hole this side of the Postage Stamp comes up two holes later.  

I grew up playing Pebble since childhood and always thought the original 5th was a bit of a duck. The green was hemmed in between a funky stone wall and a deep arroyo, which did not come into play unless you came well over the top. I always wondered why they did not remove the ugly Eucalyptus trees off the tee on the left and move the green so it hung off the edge.

As Uncle Bob notes, it was horribly steep from back to front and due to poor air circulation and a lack of light, was surrounded by muddy Kikuyu grass and rotting leaves. It never felt like I was squeezing through a magical portal to the next dimensional Chakra because #4 is a breathtaking hole.

Being nostalgic about the old #5 is like pining for the 18th best looking girl you ever undressed. It was not awful, but if there are 17 better holes on the golf course, I cannot vote against a titty lift and some liposuction just because I'm not crazy about the surgeon.