The Old 5th at Pebble Beach

[Sam Morrow]

Whenever coverage shows the 5th at Pebble they talk about what a great hole Jack built and then talk about how awkward the old 5th was. The only time I've ever seen it was on the old Links 386 computer game. So the question is, what made the old 5th so bad? Does anyone have any pictures?

Thanks.

[Tom_Doak]

It wasn't really a bad hole, just a disappointing hole, as you had to break away from the ocean to avoid someone's oceanfront house.  It was a narrow tee shot through a little hourglass in the trees, playing a bit uphill to a very steep, terraced, back-to-front green.  If you got over the back of the green, you were dead.

[Peter Galea]

I really liked the old 5th. I had played it numerous times, and the new 5th only twice.
It was uphill a club or club and a half, large oval bunker looming on the right side.
The right of the hole was bordered by the cart path and immediately right of that,
a stone wall running the length of the hole.
The left side was hazard, a large eucalyptus grove, with branches almost hanging over the green.
Precision was paramount. A miscue could be a card wrecker.
At the time, surrounded by kikuya, little chips were pretty scary.
Once on the putting surface the fun began, it was severe, and fast.
I may be in the minority, but I liked it and was sorry to see it go.

And I liked to imagine living in the quaint little house on the bluff the new hole replaced.
My memory may be playing tricks but I think it was green with a shake roof.

[Bob_Huntley]

Pete,

You summed it up perfectly, not a pretty hole but an absolute ball buster if you were a hooker. I thought the new hole was a walkover compared to the old.

Bob

[Kalen Braley]

There was a massive multi-page thread just on the 5th hole that was around about 5 years ago...I'll look around and see if I can find it.

I just recall it was very spirited and people were very passionately divided on the topic.

[mike_beene]

And the old 5th fit the routing.No walk back to 6 and was a better lead in to the 6-10 stretch.Plus,an uphill hole with a hazard left,the visual can make you hang back and hook like crazy.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

And the old 5th fit the routing.No walk back to 6 and was a better lead in to the 6-10 stretch.Plus,an uphill hole with a hazard left,the visual can make you hang back and hook like crazy.

I remember walking down the fairway at Riviera years ago with Ben Crenshaw(practice round) and my son asked him what he thought about the new 5th.  Ben, not one to say bad things about anyone designer or anything for that matter, said he was sorry that the walk back to the 6th tee was so far and that it disrupted the flow of the walk at Pebble.  So everytime I now see it, that is about all I can think of.

Another thought, my son once wrote that Jack's legacy as a designer would be tied up with the new 5th at Pebble.  Probably not true, but I do think it was a bit of an opportunity missed.  Decent little hole yes, but one of the better holes at Pebble, no.

[Anthony Gray]

  How could it be better?

  Anthony

[Bill Brightly]

Here are the before and after aerials. Sorry the old photos are not so great, but at least you can see the routings.

[Kalen Braley]

I too am curious what else could have been done different given such a small amount of land to work with.  Was the land east of the current location of the green available to use?  (Where the two houses are now?)

[Sean Leary]

If they had the land at their disposal back when it was built they surely would have used the oceanfront land. Perhaps the great 6th would not be as it is today, so I give the walk back and the flowus interruptus a pass.

Ideal, no. Better than it was before with the old 5th, absolutely.

[Jay Cox]

A few years back, there was a thread about "wormholes," referring to walks within a routing that felt like transitions from one world to another.  The walk through the woods from the 9th green to the 10th tee at Yale was one example.

The old 5th felt like a wormhole, except that it was a hole, not a walk between holes.  You finished a set of holes that, while they touch on the ocean and include some excellent feautres, feel like ordinary golf holes.  You enter the mostly densely vegetated area in the Pebble routing, an area that doesn't even really feel like it should be a golf hole (hence the "world's only dogleg par 3" comments), and play a hole that, while unique and kind of interesting, certainly did not feel like it was part of one of the world's best golf courses.  And then you come out the other side and, pow, you're on the 6th tee and are overwhelmed by the cheer awesomeness of it all.

[ChipOat]

I agree with Pete and Bob.  The old #5 wasn't a bad hole, at all.  I t deserves better "cred" than just the best way to walk from #4 green to #6 tee box.

My disappointment with the new #5, and I'm not sure the land allowed Nicklaus to do any better, is that the ocean doesn't really come into play unless you're chasing a back right hole location from the back tee markers.  By far, the best place to miss is short left.

I'll give Nicklaus credit for wanting to do more with the ocean if he could.  After Muirfield Village, it was probably the most visible project of his entire golf design career.

The problem was the expectations, I think.  Plenty of good holes at PB aren't really affected by the ocean if you hit good shots - #'s 14 and 17 are two of the best holes in golf, IMO.  But the new #5 was on the water, so..............

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I agree with Pete as well. i found the old 5th to be a great short hole fraught with danger. The only thing missing was Tom's point about breaking away from the ocean. The new hole is nice but is a missed opportunity. It is not on anybodies list of better holes on the course.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I thought the old 5th was a real dull hole. I played PB in 1989 and I felt other than 7 the short holes were very average (yes I did not like 17, the vision from the tee is just nothing) we all came away very dissapointed in parts of PB, that aside it has so many 10/10 holes, of course its right up there. That old 5th was just so ordinary, agronimically a nightmare I expect, but a par 3 like17 & 12 that never looked inviting from the tee.
Surely there could not be anyone that could think that the JN5 is not better.

[William_G]

the old 5th sucked compared to the new oceanfront hole

an uphill blind shot with fence/homes right and gunch left

while the new 5th could probably be better, there is no comparison

[Bill_McBride]

That huge retaining wall/bulkhead on the new hole is heinous.   Haven't noticed that before, a different camera angle perhaps?

(Haven't played Pebble since the new 5th was built.)

[Adrian_Stiff]

That huge retaining wall/bulkhead on the new hole is heinous.   Haven't noticed that before, a different camera angle perhaps?

(Haven't played Pebble since the new 5th was built.)

Bill what does heinous mean? Not heard that word before but it does not seem complimentary

[William_G]

that retaining wall is for the forward tee that everyone/amateurs plays from when the pay to play...only the pros play it back far enough to view that ugly wall from the back tees

[Mark Saltzman]

Surely there could not be anyone that could think that the JN5 is not better.

Adrian, read this: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,27898.0.html

[Sam Morrow]

Amazing that nobody has any pictures of the old hole.

[Matthew Essig]

Amazing that nobody has any pictures of the old hole.

Because the old hole was the exact opposite of picturesque.  It was probably the ugliest hole on the peninsula at the time IMO.

[mike_beene]

Anybody paid any attention to what the old 5th looks like now?Haven't been out there in a while and never noticed what became of the land.Wouldn't be much room to build anything..

[Tim_Cronin]

Anybody paid any attention to what the old 5th looks like now?Haven't been out there in a while and never noticed what became of the land.Wouldn't be much room to build anything..

There are two gazillion-dollar houses on the old site.

[Patrick_Mucci]

the old 5th sucked compared to the new oceanfront hole

an uphill blind shot with fence/homes right and gunch left

while the new 5th could probably be better, there is no comparison

How would you compare the two holes in the context of the routing and continuity ?