The Old Course resurrected?

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen, Bear with me!

I have been thoroughly enjoying the Feature Interview starring Melvyn, Tom Morris and The Old Course.  Melvyn made two statements that particularly caught my eye. The first was that "we are no longer taught that vital lesson regarding golf, which is that the game is first and foremost, a challenging game."   Secondly in alluding to the idea that "The Old Course was designed for the Hickory and Gutty combination" Melvyn frets that "technology is about to, if it has not already outgrown TOC."

Mulling over this I had a Eureka moment. I wonder if the following idea might work in restoring  beauty and joy into the Grand Old Lady for all us amateurs and seekers of truth.

First question.  Is there a ball that is routinely manufactured such that its compression and spin values provide shorter driving distances and less spin?
 
Second question.  Would this ball go some way to bringing back into play many of the traditional and iconic hazards and the other architectural challenges presented by The Old Course?

Third question.  Would it be a totally daft idea to have this ball handed out to all and sundry by the starter on the first tee at St. Andrews?

I think it would be a jolly good idea.  As I said above would not many of the hazards be back in play and give the golfer a much better appreciation of what The Old Course is really about. I think that the mediocre player would still have oodles of fun whilst the class player would not simply be skipping over the hazards but would have to think more about his game on this icon of a golf course.  Surely many of the visitors, the majority of whom are there for a once in a lifetime experience, would relish the chance to play this beauty and its architecture as was intended. It would be affordable as a nominal quid a ball with a refund on balls not unpacked is peanuts in the scheme of things . Providing the complete hickory and gutty ball shebang would be expensive and  unrealistic (unlike my flash of brilliance!).

Would not The St. Andrews Trust or equivalent see this as preserving the integrity of their greatest of courses and leap on this idea?

I haven't thought this through but in reality do the holes on The Old Course actually lend themselves to this idea? I am guessing that they would if as Melvyn suggests The Old Course had its heyday during the hickory and gutty era.

Does this forum think this is a brilliant idea, worth a try, fantastical, unrealistic or a heap of dung?
What do folks think? Have I lost the plot or is this untarnished genius!?

Cheers Colin

[David Kelly]

By taking the measure of making Cayman balls mandatory you would basically be saying that The Old Course is a relic or an antique and that the game has passed it by.  I don't think that is the case at all and I think the course proves it every day.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Colin

Sorry mate, but I would get back in the bath if I were you, Eureka moment; no sorry, a fart under water is more near the mark.

If change is made, be it the ball/clubs etc. it has to be universal - all for one and one ball for all courses. Certainly use the Old Lady as the standard but uniform must be the order of the day - I think that is the whole problem with the game, its been allowed to do what others want giving a total lack of consistency and uniformity certainly related to the equipment IMHO.

So get back in that bath or as Eddie Waring (Rugby League Commentator) use to say "He's gone for the early bath",

Melvyn

[George Freeman]

The main assumption with this thread is that "modern equipment has rendered the Old Course obsolete" or too easy or too short or whatever.  

I have a big problem when someone says X course has been outgrown by equipment, 340 yard drives and 185 yard 8-irons.  When they say this they are obviously talking about professional golfers, not everyday golfers.  I'm not sure there has ever been a bigger difference between the ability of the touring professionals when compared to "regular golfers".  Yes, for 120 of the BEST golfers in the world, some courses are not challenging or long enough.  But that is for, at most, 4 days a year.

Golf is still an extremely difficult game, even with 460cc drivers and zip grooves.  You will never hear me complain about the game being too easy, and I am supposedly a single digit handicapper.

I've only played the Old Course once, but for 97% of the golfing population, she is still a stern and challenging test of golf.  Plenty challenging enough.

I will never understand the argument to make the game of golf harder.  It's already hard enough.  A major reason why we can't grow the game is due to the difficulty of it - for most people it's just too damn hard.

The Old Course (along wiht many others) does not need to be resurrected!

[Bill_McBride]

The obsolescence of the Old Course is really only a reality for the highest level players.   In 2005 I sat in the bleachers by #14 green at the Open and watched almost every player blow his second over Hell Bunker, many with irons.   They were playing from the Open tee that is perhaps 60 yards out onto the Eden course!   It was disappointing and discouraging to see the hazards of the hole ignored by that level of golfer.

However, sit in that spot six days a week at any other time and you'll see tragedy and comedy played out in the Beardies, Hell, the Kitchen, over the wall, etc. etc.

My point?  It's absolutely pointless to attempt to protect The Old Course from those talented fellows.  Instead, pray for 30 MPH winds!

[Ed Brzezowski]

I believe Bills post is spot on. We have a touring pro at my home course and he makes the place look like a pitch and putt course. While the mean handicap has remained at 17 over the years. You, imho, simply cannot go back far enough to cause them concern. While the rest of us still struggle, even with the most current equipment.

I have played TOC a few times and found it a great course to navigate each time. Yes 5 is a short par five but there is still enough leeway to get yourself in trouble. Do we all have to change because a very few can hit a 350 yard drive??

I read Melvyns interview and wonder about the yardage books from old. If the old school caddies measured the course ( they knew the length of each hole didn't they? )  did  they have their own yardage books or " local knowledge". Does anyone know when yardage books were originally done and made public knowledge??

[Melvyn Morrow]

In my life time TOC has become smaller. Scores have tumbled and while technology goes on apparently unchallenged, the problem is continuing, it’s getting much worse.

If you lived by the sea on a cliff, would you wait until most of your garden has fallen over the cliff edge before considering how to protect your house?  Because quite frankly that is how your comment is coming across.

The clear signal is that there is a problem. There is a problem for many courses built pre WW2.

Many of the established courses have limited land to continue much more expansion, so I am very concerned as to what will happen to them?

You all have your own views and that’s great, but some of us go way past playing golf to caring about our local old courses and the traditions of the game while others just enjoy playing their version of the game.

As for golf being hard, that’s the bloody point, but it’s actually not if we utilise skill rather than brawn. Control your shots, navigate the course, OK, so your score is slightly higher for a while but soon skill develops and score diminish add to that you are playing the game of golf. Which translates into Man against the land, the elements and the designer or you can play the international game of ‘wham, bam thank you Mam’ missing the whole purpose of the traditional game – But then that’s your choice, hence my description of being a golfer or a player.

The simple fact is that in my lifetime technology has weakened many of our great courses.

Melvyn     


PS Ed  There was no concept of distance, certainly as many use it today, it’s a modern crutch. Caddies originally just carried clubs or spotted the resting place of the ball. None of this Tourist Information Centre rubbish they have become today, all to ease the way of the player. Golf was golf in the old days, that’s the game, but today with the laziness of modern players who expect to ride, to also have someone work out their shot, distance to be able to select the correct club and directions. To carry their bags and if some could I expect they would expect the caddies to wipe their backsides too – that’s how weak and lazy the game has become – so please look to distance aids as modern, just like the cart – the concept of distance was instinctive controlled by the golfers eyes/brain coordination, alas nearly a forgotten art these days.

[Bruce Wellmon]

Caddies originally just carried clubs

At Talamore and Sherwood Forest, that option is available.

http://www.blueridgenow.com/article/20090720/NEWS/907209939?Title=Llamas-trained-to-be-caddies-at-Sherwood-Forest

[Ed Brzezowski]

Melvyn,
I find it hard to believe an enterprising people like the Scots didn't have some system to figure yardage and communicate the same. Even if a caddy would relay that Mr. Morris hit's  his mid iron from this spot. If they were selling Ginger Beer why not sell information??

Nice interview, I enjoy your thoughts. But regarding TOC don't you think it maybe easier to play and score the more you play it?? I have never played a course with so many options and problems resulting from a route you think was proper and were mistaken. Length is one factor to be considered but proper position is the great equalizer on that course. I can still make a par if 10 yards off line at my course, not so on TOC.  A drive on number two hit 5 yards offline or too far can result in a rather large number.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ed

A golfer does not need help, aid or whatever you call it - that’s why he/she is a golfer and not a player.

Why did golf go international, was it because of carts, distance aids? No, it was because the golfer was responsible for his game in total - today because of too much money or is it all down to pride or the need to be a winner that has made modern man forget how to play the game of golf.

Alas my friend, you need to refocus, work out what’s important to you and your life, and then proceed accordingly - whatever you do please note that distance was a judgement made by the eyes of a golfer not caddie or distance aids.

Melvyn

[George Freeman]

Melvyn - if you took the average score of every round played on the Old Course (excluding professional tournaments) from 1970 to present, do you think there would be a huge discrepancy in the average score on the Old Course?

My guess is that the difference wouldn't be more a couple strokes.

My point being that I don't think the technology of golf equipment (only the equipment you use to hit the ball) has drastically helped anyone other than the top 1% of golfers in the world.  For the rest of us, we can all slice a 460cc titanium driver just as far offline as a persimmon driver...

[Colin Macqueen]

Melvyn,
Wonderful response! Methinks you would rather have had me drowned at birth! So........ I might have had a brain-fart.

Nonetheless you suggest we could use the Old Lady as a standard but uniformity must prevail. I 'umbly suggest we could use her as a pace-setter. In so doing we can retain her integrity, stop the rape and pillage of her shores and allow the top flight of players (forget the professionals) to once again experience the thrill of the chase.

In all seriousness. If the pros make a mockery of the hazards with 60 yards of extra tee length then I can imagine the top 20% of amateur golfers being able to fly those hazards from the non-medal, commonly used , tees on a regular basis.

Out of interest did the single markers on this forum who have played The Old Course feel they were missing out on interacting with the architecture in regards to bunker placement?

Cheers Colin

[Melvyn Morrow]

Colin

The answer is give the Pro's Hickory and gutty and see them on TOC, take away the technology and let’s see what they are really made of, and just add a good windy day too.

Or is that a fart in a trance

Melvyn

[Ed Brzezowski]

Ok Melvyn,

You have certainly been exposed to a different set of circumstances than most but I must disagree somewhat. May I pose a question? How did those with less than perfect vision play this game before the mass use of corrective lenses?? How do those now, not blessed with good or correctable vision, play the game? I have no depth perception, the joke at my club is when i splashed two balls because the 66 and 99 look the same to me. I can only walk half the time due to a auto accident. Should i just pack up the clubs or try to enjoy the game with a yardage book?? Does the use of a book make anyone less of a golfer or purist??

I see your point but need to ask where such reasonable accomodations end. When does a player lose ' player" status and end up a 'golfer'?? Am I beyond the point of no return my friend

[Jon Wiggett]

Ed,

there is a traditional answer to your distance problem and its called a caddie. Won't tell you the distance but will give you the right club. You can't blame the yardage book for the wrong distance when you mishit but you can sack your caddy for giving you the wrong club

Seriously,

I think it would be good if the pros would go back to eyeballing the distance and maybe shorter balls. For the rest of us mortals I don't think it makes much difference

Jon

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ed

In the beginning Man could only rely upon his God given gifts of legs, arms, eyes and brain. There was nothing else, he had only himself to rely upon. Could not walk, you did not play golf; cannot see, you did not play golf. A sort of sportsman, or there by the grace of God goes a golfer.

My game is not special, I am not special but I am a golfer who honours the game and its traditions. I cannot walk even the shortest Par 3 without severe back pain, to play a round I would need a cart, but its so much of an aid I cannot bring myself to use them, albeit I have tried them on one or two occasions some 20 years ago. They take the magic out of the game for me.

I will not use distance aids because I have never used them nor felt the need to do so. As I walk I absorb the feeling of the course, my subconscious is working on the lay of the land and my body, brains and eyes allow me to instinctively select the appropriate club without outside help, after all it’s my game and I want to select my own club, thank you.

As I said you do what you must, it’s your life, but as you need a cart for mobility that’s seems fine by me because you have a medical reason for not walking. That same medical ailment restricts you, so it has a bearing on your game, a handicap if you will. I want to play golf not cart ball so I currently do not play (and may never again), so currently I retired as a golfer not tempted by the Devil into dishonouring myself or the game that is so dear to my family.

In the end we judge ourselves, so be true to thy self. With golf my enjoyment is complete as I played the game by my own hand, mind and body unaided by caddies, or outside aids. You must judge yourself. Do you qualify as a golfer or player? But can we rely on the honesty of people that need help in the form of aids to be totally honest with themselves? I leave that one for you to decide.

Melvyn

[Mac Plumart]

Colin...

I like the way you think.  But I do think to make that mandatory is to, as has been said, formally admit the Old Course is a relic and museum piece...which it is most certainly not.  It gave me everything I could handle...and it still gives the pros all they can handle when the wind is not still.

However, I love your idea and I would relish the idea of playing it with hickories and gutties.  I can't imagine anything more fun than that.  But I realize others have different tastes.  So, perhaps, have it be an option for golfers.  That is have hickories and gutties available for rent and advertised frequently.

[mike_beene]

If they would just use the back tees a lot of this is moot.

[jeffwarne]

The main assumption with this thread is that "modern equipment has rendered the Old Course obsolete" or too easy or too short or whatever.  

I have a big problem when someone says X course has been outgrown by equipment, 340 yard drives and 185 yard 8-irons.  When they say this they are obviously talking about professional golfers, not everyday golfers.  I'm not sure there has ever been a bigger difference between the ability of the touring professionals when compared to "regular golfers".  Yes, for 120 of the BEST golfers in the world, some courses are not challenging or long enough.  But that is for, at most, 4 days a year.

Golf is still an extremely difficult game, even with 460cc drivers and zip grooves.  You will never hear me complain about the game being too easy, and I am supposedly a single digit handicapper.

I've only played the Old Course once, but for 97% of the golfing population, she is still a stern and challenging test of golf.  Plenty challenging enough.

I will never understand the argument to make the game of golf harder.  It's already hard enough.  A major reason why we can't grow the game is due to the difficulty of it - for most people it's just too damn hard.

The Old Course (along wiht many others) does not need to be resurrected!

George.
How many of the new tees on the Od Course are actually on the Old course now when they play an Open there.?
Yet I would agree the Old Course is still very relevant as it's is so well designed.

Many would say the game was harder in the 1950's and 1960's and the game grew quite bit then.
It was also harder in the 90's and it grew a lot then.
Many would say it's easier now and it's not growing as much.
So I see no correlation.
You think it's just the top 120 playing a different game?
Try the top 120000.
Go to a college tournament, or a mini tour event.
even if their scoes aren't stupid low, they're hitting it 320 yards.
it's a different game, and a more dangerous game on a much larger scale then it used to be for the better players.
Sure plenty of guys still suck, there will always be guys that suck-that doesn't mean the equipment doesn't mean reining in.

No one wants to make the game harder,just rein in the scale.
Won't affect you or me at all, but will narrow the gap in scale between a great player and a good player, who will have to demonstrate superior skill rather than 70 more yards off the  tee.

[George Freeman]

Jeff - my point is that limiting/reigning in equipment is only necessary for a VERY small percentage of the golf population.  You say 120,000 vs. my 120.  Ok, I'll give you that.  What percentage of the golfing population is 120,000?  I just saw somewhere that there are an estimated 60 million golfers world wide.  Your 120,000 would equate to two tenths of one percent (0.2%).

What percentage of the golfing population has a USGA handicap (or equivalent) of less than 5?  2%?  My USGA index at the moment is a 5.3 and even with all this new, crazy technology, this game is still very challenging for me, as I know is the case for the vast majority of people who don't play the game for a living.  

Go stand on the first tee of Joe Blow public course with full tee sheet and you tell me how many of the people you watch tee off need their equipment "reigned in".  Let me know how many 320 yard drives you witness. 

I will never understand how making the game of golf more challenging is good for the sport's future or growth...

[jeffwarne]

Jeff - my point is that limiting/reigning in equipment is only necessary for a VERY small percentage of the golf population.  You say 120,000 vs. my 120.  Ok, I'll give you that.  What percentage of the golfing population is 120,000?  I just saw somewhere that there are an estimated 60 million golfers world wide.  Your 120,000 would equate to two tenths of one percent (0.2%).

What percentage of the golfing population has a USGA handicap (or equivalent) of less than 5?  2%?  My USGA index at the moment is a 5.3 and even with all this new, crazy technology, this game is still very challenging for me, as I know is the case for the vast majority of people who don't play the game for a living.  

Go stand on the first tee of Joe Blow public course with full tee sheet and you tell me how many of the people you watch tee off need their equipment "reigned in".  Let me know how many 320 yard drives you witness. 

I will never understand how making the game of golf more challenging is good for the sport's future or growth...

Just because the average guy hasn't lowered his handicap doesn't mean the scale hasn't changed for young strong players.
And if the average handicap hasn't changed with new equipment, what impact would rolling it back actually have?
Other than eliminating the need for new tees,wider safety corridors etc.

Nobody on the first tee you're referring needs reining in.
Nor is the game less chllenging for me -I like most golfers still suck.
Once upon a time along drive was 300 yards, now it's 340.
Shorter hitters used to hit it 200 yards.
they still do,
Limiting the ball won't affect the shorter hitters-they'll still be short and hitting it 200 yards.
They'll only be 100 yards back rather than 140
Good accurate drivers will actually endorse it as they'll be able to continue to hit their drivers on holes the bombers have been hitting hybrids and fairway woods.

Those 120000 long hitters are joined by another million who hit it long and wrong.
I'd like to see that  be just wrong and not so long

[Scott Macpherson]

I have actually played TOC with hickory's. It was 2 years ago, and I used a low compression ball. I shot 83, including taking 4 shots to get out of a bunker on the 12th. It was great fun. I would recommend others do it. It certainly gave me another way to appreciate the virtues of TOC.

NB– It was in the summer, and my driving distance was up with the other guys I was playing with, and only slightly behind where I hit it normally. It was around the greens where I found the real challenge came.


scott