[Patrick_Mucci]

greatest holes in golf ?

Greatest par 4's in golf ?

[David_Elvins]

No

No

It is one of the great second shots in golf. 

[David Kelly]

Yes

Yes

Without a well placed drive you don't get to experience one of the greatest second shots in golf.

[Mark Saltzman]

Am I the only one that thinks the 8th is a hole that is more photogenic than good?

Tee Shot: Forced lay-up; nothing more than long-iron or hybrid for many.

Approach: Forced carry (that is too long for many HH to make) to a green that slopes so severely back-to-front that the only place to miss is short.  Bunkers 30 yards short of the green mean that an attempt at reaching the front edge by a HH becomes too great a risk.

Green: At modern green speeds above the hole is almost unputtable.

[Adam Clayman]

Mark, Yes, You are the only one.

This forced layup, is not forced. People have been bombing it over the cove for a long time, now. Of course, that's their option to try. As Natural landforms go, it is just an amazing spots on earth, let alone a golf course.

Throw in some wind, and this hole defines what ocean side golf can be like. Wrought with drama, all due to the influences of mother nature.

IMO, it's the defining moment in the round, is when your ball returns to earth on #8, either safe, or not.

The rear bunkers are also integral to the approach. Without them, the fear of long would still be there, but, it would be greatly diminished.

[Matthew Rose]

Well, I've never been there.... but it's a hole I've wanted to play my whole life. Possibly more than any other except for maybe 12 and 13 at Augusta which I've essentially conceded as an impossibility.

[PThomas]

absolutely yes to both Patrick

Jack has stated its his favorite approach shot, i think

[Anthony Gray]

  In my book it comes in 2nd. It cannot be replicated like the road hole.It is the most dramatic for sure.

  Anthony

[Bill Brightly]

It is definitely a great hole, but Mark is partially correct. It is a forced layup tee shot but no one seems to mind because the hazrad is the Pacific Ocean and the views are stunning when you get to the cliff. But if the same hole dimensions where built on an inland site and the hazard was a marshy bog or a pond, it would get little love on GCA, in my opinion. Location, location, location.

[Jud_T]

Mark,

I'm with you on this.  The most photogenic 2nd shot in golf.  Good pucker factor for first timers. Any other par 4 where you're forced to hit a 200 yard layup short of a crossing water hazard would be ripped to shreds.  Although it is a doozie of a water hazard.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I always think of Brad Klein's description of this hole - something like, one of the worst tee shots in golf followed by one of, if not the most dramatic approach shots.

[George Pazin]

...But if the same hole dimensions where built on an inland site and the hazard was a marshy bog or a pond, it would get little love on GCA, in my opinion. Location, location, location.

I'll disagree with my friend Bill here. I think it would still get love, though obviously not as much. In a sense, it's a diagonal approach, as opposed to the diagonal tee shot many (on here and elsewhere) favor.

There's nothing wrong with a testing execution type hole, as long as the entire course isn't all these types of holes. And I think it does offer room to layup short, though, like Cypress #16, few avail themselves of the opportunity to play smart ("I didn't come here to lay up!" <=== you can't hold this mentality against the course or the designer).

I wonder how Pebble would be received if it got a makeover like Pinehurst #2, returning it to the dunes-like state of the 20s.

[SL_Solow]

I like the hole and consider it to be one of my favorites.  What interests me is that we constantly compliment those architects who use the land given to them in creative ways without transforming it completely via earth moving.  Here we have a remarkable site with some of the best ocean front  property ever made available.  The architects build, in succession, the interesting 6th which hugs a cliff and takes the play toward the ocean.  They incorporate the short drop shot 7 which changes in character depending on the wind.  then they find a way to incorporate the cove area in as dramatic and challenging way as possible and we nit pick it to death.  Unless it was incorporated as the 2nd shot on a par 5 where the choice between an heroic carry or a layup left was the option, I can't think of a better way to use the feature.  If that was the choice, where is the tee and waht happens to 7?  Sometimes there are tradeoffs and I submit very little was given away to make this hole work.  But you can't satisfy everybody.

[Bill Brightly]

There is no question that PB 8 is one of the most dramatic second shots in golf, and I love the hole. Obviously, the archy used the land fairly well

But for the sake of argument, I think there are hundreds of of holes that require the same shots. Take away the Pacific Ocean and the cliff, and holes like this on inland sites can be bland. I'll use an example of from my own course, Saucon Valley Grace #8.

Big hitters lay up short of the pond. Taking driver and trying to hit the fairway long left offers very little reward and tons of risk.


And if the hazard is a boring pond like this, there is no drama. Just take a club that will stop 10-20 yards short of the hazard and hit a good iron.

[Tim Gavrich]

I've never played the hole but I feel like as layups go, it's kind of an interesting layup.  The end of the fairway seems to be angled such that you can hit it a little farther if you go down the left.  Plus, it's kind of blind (isn't it?) so you have to feel the proper distance you need to hit the ball.  So it's not like you're hitting a par-3-type tee shot (i.e. with an iron to a specific landing area and nowhere else will do) off the tee; there's a little strategy involved.

[JESII]

Bill,

Isn't that what makes it great? The concept you see at Saucon is being discussed favorably as one of the best holes in all of golf at Pebble Beach. It's impressive that they didn't try to do more to match the drama of the surroundings...rather they just threw you right into the middle of the surroundings.

[SL_Solow]

When the argument is made that Pebble or its holes are really less than special, only the Pacific Ocean makes it great, I am reminded of a remark usually attributed to Sam Snead who, faced with a similar statement, was purported to say, " Yes, and if you took away Marilyn Monroes t__s, she would just be another woman".  Sometimes natural features give a site advantages.  The question is how well are they used?  That is really the essence of what we are calling minimalism.  Combine good architecture with a great site and you get something special.  There is no reason to downgrade the work.  The sad cases are when less than good work keeps a good site from living up to its potential.  Clearly not the case here.

[Bill Brightly]

Probably would help the discussion to see the Google Earth image of the hole.

Upon reflection, I think the angle of the hazard is really good, and allows you to be aggresive on the left side in order to have a short enough iron to really improve your chances of hitting the green. If you play too conservatively off the tee, you leave a 200+ yard shot, and a small chance of hitting the green.

[JESII]

This forced layup, is not forced. People have been bombing it over the cove for a long time, now. Of course, that's their option to try.

Adam,

I measured 320 from the middle of the back tee to carry...surely this hasn't happened more than a couple times has it?

[Jud_T]

If you were going to pick one par 4 to play every day for the rest of your life, would this crack the top ten?

[Joe Leenheer]

If you were going to pick one par 4 to play every day for the rest of your life, would this crack the top ten?

According to Mr. Nicklaus...yes as well as the other 17 holes. 

[archie_struthers]

 

It's a great second shot , but I think number 9 is better!

[Mike Benham]

Am I the only one that thinks the 8th is a hole that is more photogenic than good?

Tee Shot: Forced lay-up; nothing more than long-iron or hybrid for many.

Mark - How far do you hit your long-iron / hybrid?

The mistake that some make is trying to stay on the right side of the fairway with their tee shot where the correct play is to hit as much club as you want down the left side, even into the rough.  The fairways ends 280 yards off the tee (from the back tee box) leaving only 165 to the green with very little of the cove to carry.

[Jud_T]

If you were going to pick one par 4 to play every day for the rest of your life, would this crack the top ten?

According to Mr. Nicklaus...yes as well as the other 17 holes. 

Unless he miraculously joins GCA, I was asking for YOUR opinion Joe.  Jack's has been more than well documented in far less stellar publications than this. 

[Joel_Stewart]

We are not breaking any new ground here?  A few years ago one of the magazines did a poll and the 8th was voted the best par 4 in the world.  The 16th at Cypress Point was the best par 3.   I can't recall what was the best par 5?

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