Butler and women members?

[Sean Leary]

A current member's wife would do the trick I would think.

[Terry Lavin]

Anonymous snark in a high dose.

[PThomas]

its the subject of an article on page 4 of todays Chicago Tribune...

[Jud_T]

Good thesis topic for someone on the power of free market economics...

[Jud_T]

Ghost,

You may well be right.  This allows the Trib to print a map of each of the gender specific clubs cast as sex-offenders residing in your neighborhood, all on the pretense of referencing their own prior story based on "unnamed sources".

[Kalen Braley]

It seems pretty clear to me from reading the article that this one is referring to the article 3 days ago.

And in that article the source was "Industry sources".

Given the media uses the anonymity card alot, and most of the time its true, it didn't seem the article was a stretch.

[Terry Lavin]

Dave,

As usual, your certainty is baseless.

[Jud_T]

Dave,

As usual, your certainty is baseless.

Terry,

While I think I generally side with you on this, until the Trib endorses Romney I wouldn't say the Ghost's argument is baseless  .

[Terry Lavin]

Who's your source, other than Schmidt on Suburban Speculations?

[Mark Johnson]

I hope that the Tribune understands that the more baseless reports they run, the LESS likely Butler or any other club will be to change its membership policies.

Private clubs with a long heritage do not resppond well to bullies

[SL_Solow]

Ghost,  what do you expect from a product of NU journalism who spends most of his time covering Wildcat sports?

[Kalen Braley]

It would seem between Ghost Hord, Terry, and a few others...

..there has got to be someone who either knows a member at Butler or has a friend who knows a member.  Seems a simple little harmless inquiry to the matter would be a valuable data point.

Schmidt,

I get your repulsion to it, but our system has long upheld the right of the press and its sources to remain confidentail, (except in criminal cases).  I'm really surprised to see your reaction to this given that FoxNews started this style of news reporting about 10 years ago and remains the worst abuser of it today.  At least the tribune said they had a source, FoxNews doesn't even do that...they just spout it out in an opinion piece and then the next day run a "news clip" that goes along of the line of "Its been reported that..."

[Jeff Shelman]

I'm not going to get into whether Teddy has the sources (disclosure: I know Teddy from my previous life as a sportswriter), but I found one thing interesting in the first story.

He referred to Augusta as the "best-known all-male club," but to me there's a difference between no women members, but allowing women to play and a place that is men only and doesn't allow women on the property.

[JR Potts]

Teddy Greenstein's NU homerism is repulsive.

[Terry Lavin]

Who's your source, other than Schmidt on Suburban Speculations?

I don't have to have a source. I don't have a burden. The Tribune does.  But for what it's worth, I have 5 in-laws that belong to Butler (they are not, however, my "source" - because I, unlike the Tribune, do not need one).

So, you ARE right.  You are ABSOLUTELY right and:

1. You're not a Butler member
2. You don't have a source.
3. You feel free to malign a real reporter, not a blogging/hobbyist scribbler.

Chutzpah is too small a word for your bluff and bluster.

[Terry Lavin]

This is what Greenstein wrote:

Butler National "is strongly considering opening its doors to women, a move that could bring major championships to Chicago and would mark a major cultural shift for the 40-year-old institution.

Industry sources told the Tribune the iconic Oak Brook club, ranked 54th on Golf Digest's "America's 100 Greatest" list, is conducting a study that will analyze how many women would be invited for membership and the facilities it would need to build.

Butler National is in contact with officials from the USGA and PGA of America regarding whether the club can be a future site for events such as the U.S. Open, PGA Championship and Ryder Cup."


So let me get this straight, Mr. Schmidt, are you saying that this is false?  Are you accusing a Tribune reporter of making this up?  Or are you just saying that the club will never change the policy, that it will remain male only, that the members would defeat a motion to change the club by-laws?

[Terry Lavin]

I'm saying that I believe what he wrote, that Butler is looking into changing it's policy and is contacting people at the USGA and PGA to gauge their interest. I'm saying that Butler like all clubs needs fresh blood in the membership ranks and that there's a very good chance that they will take the plunge.   I could be wrong of course. Unlike you I do allow the possibility of error in my life.

And I'm saying that you should be ashamed of yourself for impugning a good man's professional reputation.   I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate insinuations about your ethics.

[Terry Lavin]

You might as well go back to reading the Warren Report.

[PThomas]

i wonder if the Trib has considered putting this in an editorial...

[Terry Lavin]

I'm saying that I believe what he wrote, that Butler is looking into changing it's policy and is contacting people at the USGA and PGA to gauge their interest. I'm saying that Butler like all clubs needs fresh blood in the membership ranks and that there's a very good chance that they will take the plunge.   

In other words, I'm ignoring/trying to change the issue because I don't like the issue.

I'm so sorry that you have the vestigial need to play moot court on this site. You wouldn't last ten minutes in court against a rookie lawyer with this piffle.

[Terry Lavin]

So they made it up.  Greenstein didn't have a source from the golf industry who told him about Butler's quiet efforts to test the market. He lied, just so he could advance the newspaper's politically correct agenda of shaming this private club into ending it's discriminatory policy.  Funny, because you, the accuser in chief have nothing to back up your defamatory statements. Stick with the cheater line.  Suits you. 

[Tim_Cronin]

Judge Lavin would appear to be off-line at the moment, but I'm happy to chime in.

Mr. Greenstein reported that "Industry sources" said Butler is conducting a study concerning possible future female membership and what it would need to build for them. To me, that indicates that Mr. Greenstein has at least two people telling him that under condition of anonymity. Anonymity does not discredit a source. It protects his or her identity.

He also quoted the club president as not wanting to go on the record, which is not uncommon at a private club. Club presidents have stonewalled reporters for years, sometimes for good reason, sometimes for trivial reasons.

The only problem I see in Sunday's follow-up story, written by Messrs. Keilman and Meyer, is in the third paragraph, which has created the current tempest. They write that Butler "indicated that it us studying" female membership, when Greenstein reported the study is underway and Butler, through its president, refused to confirm or deny it.

This is not the end of the world. It is what a basketball official would call a correctable error. An e-mail to Mr. Keilman or a Tribune editor (of whom there are dozens, with, knowing to some degree the Tribune's complicated system for copy flow, the odds of the same person supervising both stories rather small) might gain our good friend the Ghost either clarification or, perhaps, a correction.

I'm a reporter of over 30 years experience, and happen to cover golf in these parts. Greenstein has gotten the upper hand on me on this one, though I believe I've done the same on the BMW-to-Conway Farms story. I will dig into this posthaste and try to beat his head in on it in that friendly way reporters do so. Meanwhile, Ghost, given you seem the most distressed over this, your task, should you choose to accept it, is to contact the Tribune and see what's what.

Best wishes to you.

Tim Cronin
Publisher and editor
Illinois Golfer

[JR Potts]

The rest of your post is, yet again for the umpteenth time, pointless, obscutative drivel not worthy of response because none of it means a hill of beans.

Yet you respond three times?  Let's move on...time will tell if Terry is right or I'm right.  That said either way, I don't really care.

[Tim_Cronin]

Ryan:  the issue isn't who is proven "right" in the future. None of us can know this now. The issue is the lack of sources for the story today.

Tim:  please do get to the bottom of this 7 year Quixotoc quest and report back with on-the-record, credible sources. That would be a first.

And BTW, it IS a big deal when sources are fabricated. You, as a fellow reader, have NO evidence that there were mutiple credible sources for Teddy's first story. And the follow up story gives the reader every reason in the world to conclude that there is  not any basis for this story, given the Trib's fast and loose handling of the facts here.

Most specifically, I think what the intelligent reader wants to know is: what is the nature of this supposedly credible industry source?  I sincerely doubt it comes from the hired consultant, and I can't think of any other source without a highly dubious agenda.

Ghost: I don't know that this is a 7-year quixotic quest. I haven't used Google News Archives to detail it. But you can if you like.

I take it from the second paragraph you consider Mr. Greenstein, who uses the plural "sources," a lair. Do you have proof or are you guessing?

When I get the story, which might prove or disprove my competitor's story, it may or may not have named sources. If it does not, if would be because my sources didn't think it wise to attach their names to the truth. Then you'll have to decide if I'm a liar, and perhaps decide to call me one.

Do let us know what the people you contact at the Tribune say.

[John_Cullum]

They don't really care about women. So long as they have ethnic minorities, they'll be free from any real scrutiny or criticisms