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Tim_Cronin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2012, 06:46:14 PM »
I'm sure Teddy had sources. The question is their veracity. Well, that was the first question until the Tribune decided that whoever those sources were, they weren't good enough and decided to inflate those sources into Butler itself!  

Tim, you know as well as anybody that you can get two sources to say just about anything. For all we know, those original sources have agendas or an economic interest in seeing this happen or are just PC dogooders or whatever. I'm sure Teddy trusts their veracity. My point is that when you're looking and hoping for there to be a story (which the Trib clearly is!), of course you're going to believe them- because they're telling you what you want to hear!  In this sense, it becomes even more important for the reader to know who the sources are, because every long term reader knows the Trib is looking for there to be a story here. This is 100% the Trib's doing. They are the ones who called their credibility into question by running an unconfirmed, unattributed speculation priee page one above the fold, and followed it up by inflating and fabricating their original sources into a statement by Butler itself.

Just a couple of things because I'm off to cover something:
1. The original story wasn't speculation, it was reporting that people in the golf business say Butler's conducting a survey.
2. It may be important for everyone here to know who "Ghost of Hord Hardin" is and what his agenda may be, given his continual assault on the Tribune's use of unnamed sources.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

JR Potts

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2012, 08:46:14 PM »
Dave, you've lost your mind.

Now I don't like Teddy as a writer due to his extraordinarily biased writing on behalf of NU.  Further, his shots at Illnois and Zook went over the line as far as I'm concerned - but you're way over the line on this one.

Give it up brother. 

John_Cullum

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2012, 09:48:41 AM »
Just what is an "industry source" when it comes to the inner workings of a very private golf club?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Bill Seitz

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2012, 11:39:58 AM »
Just what is an "industry source" when it comes to the inner workings of a very private golf club?

I don't really want to get tied up in this, but presumably if the club is conducting a study (hypothetically), they've contracted with someone in the industry to actually handle the nuts and bolts of the study.  Furthermore, the original article stated that Butler is "in contact with officials from the USGA and PGA of America regarding whether the club can be a future site for events such as the U.S. Open, PGA Championship and Ryder Cup."  On that basis, I assume the industry is the golf industry in general, and if these sources exist, they're probably at the PGA and/or USGA, or possibly (but less likely) at the company conducting the study.  So my reading of that is that the sources (to the extent they exist, and I have no reason to believe that they don't, but i don't have a dog in this fight) are not from within the club.

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 18
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2012, 12:09:08 PM »
Shivas,

There are Butler members who are also industry sources.  I love Butler more than any other course where I am not a member and believe 100% that they will soon have an open membership.  The idea that these guys need to hire a consultant to either study this move or to contact the USGA is ludicrous.  I would love to be a part of a vote one more time in my life where the outcome was not decided long before the ballot box was built.  This is a done deal.

Terry Lavin

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2012, 12:09:54 PM »
And if turns out that Butler's board voted to explore this issue and was in fact talking to representatives of the USGA, the PGA, the CDGA and maybe even the WGA, and then they report to their membership that they recommend or do not recommend that the bylaws be changed, you will apologize to Teddy Greenstein, right?

Of course not, because even when proved wrong, you are not wrong, you've never been wrong.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Paul OConnor

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2012, 01:00:16 PM »
[  BTW, I had been thinking about doing this for more than a year, but I finally cancelled my subscription to the Tribune yesterday.   
[/quote]

Dave,
Good luck with that cancellation.  I tried for 6 months to cancel my Trib subscription a couple years ago.  Thay just kept sending the paper, and the invoice, I couldn't get them to stop.  Finally, when their collections people started calling, and I promised I would never send them a single cent, a couple weeks later the papers stopped showing up on my driveway.
Paul O'Connor

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 18
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2012, 01:13:18 PM »

BTW, I had been thinking about doing this for more than a year, but I finally cancelled my subscription to the Tribune yesterday. 
  

Dave,

No one loves a boycott more than me.  They are a great way to fight perceived social injustices.

Funny thing about my wife, she would kill me if I were a member of a male only club and voted to allow women to join.  She may even suggest I resign if we had to pay an assessment to make it possible.  Even with all that said, I would vote yes.  The world has changed even if there are a few lucky bastards like me whose wife has not.

Jud_T

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2012, 01:33:49 PM »
They need to find a post-op transsexual who can hit 200 yard eight irons that land like butterflies, looks like Emmy Rossum, swears like a sailor and can put down a fifth of gin before lunch and still go out and shoot 70 from the tips...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Terry Lavin

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2012, 02:39:17 PM »
And if turns out that Butler's board voted to explore this issue and was in fact talking to representatives of the USGA, the PGA, the CDGA and maybe even the WGA, and then they report to their membership that they recommend or do not recommend that the bylaws be changed, you will apologize to Teddy Greenstein, right?

Of course not, because even when proved wrong, you are not wrong, you've never been wrong.

So in other words, when the wolf really does come to town, should villagers who didn't believe a word he said apologize to the Boy?  

Yeah, sure, why not.  But for what?  Him calling Conway a links course, or for this unattributed, slanted story?  

I would suggest that you would owe him an apology for saying that he made up the story.  You accused a journalist of lying about having sources for this rather unsurprising article's premise.  If his version proves to be true (the club looked into the possibilities of getting tournaments if they changed their policy, a decision that would have to be voted on by the members), then your statements that he made it up are not only baseless (since you have said repeatedly you don't have any sources), they are false, if not outright defamatory.  Journalists write stories all the time with unnamed sources.  Here, the story cited anonymous industry sources.  There's nothing wrong with basing a story on sources like that, as long the source is reliable and there is confirmation from other sources.  So the fact that the story has anonymous sources does not mean that the story is "unattributed" or "made up" as you have repeatedly claimed.  The fact that the club officially denied the investigation means absolutely nothing and you know it.  In short, all of your bluff and bluster as a "Medill graduate" has amounted to a pile of baseless venom, a fruitless attempt to smear a good man's reputation just so you can sound like a World Champion Word Parser on a website.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Terry Lavin

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #85 on: February 14, 2012, 04:13:20 PM »
I would suggest that you would owe him an apology for saying that he made up the story.  You accused a journalist of lying about having sources for this rather unsurprising article's premise.  If his version proves to be true (the club looked into the possibilities of getting tournaments if they changed their policy, a decision that would have to be voted on by the members), then your statements that he made it up are not only baseless (since you have said repeatedly you don't have any sources), they are false, if not outright defamatory.  Journalists write stories all the time with unnamed sources.  Here, the story cited anonymous industry sources.  There's nothing wrong with basing a story on sources like that, as long the source is reliable and there is confirmation from other sources.  So the fact that the story has anonymous sources does not mean that the story is "unattributed" or "made up" as you have repeatedly claimed.  The fact that the club officially denied the investigation means absolutely nothing and you know it.  In short, all of your bluff and bluster as a "Medill graduate" has amounted to a pile of baseless venom, a fruitless attempt to smear a good man's reputation just so you can sound like a World Champion Word Parser on a website.

Ummm, Your Honor, one small problem with that --  I never said he made up the story and I never said he was lying.   I've said the Trib has an agenda, and that every February like clockwork, they gin up this story with half-truths and non-truths. I said the Trib has lost all credibility on this story over the 6-7 years they've reported it.I called the Tribune's reporting of this story "made-up, recurring PC pipe-dream masquerading as news reporting."   For this reason, I said I don't believe it.  And, BTW, I have not "repeatedly" used the phrase "made up"; I used it once early on, not in reference to Teddy's story, but rather to the Tribune's 7 year recurring PC pipe dream, which for the record, has not happened, which makes all previous versions of this story entirely wrong. 

I critiqued the Tribune's reporting of this never-ending tickler story of theirs in lots of ways, and I critiqued Teddy's slant and the fact that he didn't cite sources, so we have no idea whether they're any good or not. They are, in fact, unattributed, Terry. 

But I never said that Teddy fabricated anything.   I said he was speculating and editorializing without any attributed, credible, on the record sources.  I accused him of "reporting as fact something he has no on the record, citable, first hand sources for."  I said his use of the words "defend" and "strongly" show his slant.  And I definitely said that the Tribune has an agenda that calls their ability to vet sources into question.  No doubt about any of that.   

However, I did not say that Teddy made the story up.  All the talk of fabrication was in reference to the Sunday story, and the miraculous morphing of unnamed industry sources into Butler itself.  And that is the definition of fabrication.  But I made it clear that was on the editors and the Sunday story reporters, not Teddy. 

Look, I don't blame you for saving your hard reads for appellate briefs instead of discussion boards, but Terry, you're wrong here.

 

Just a cursory review of your bombast in this thread:

#33:  "a made up, recurring PC pipe dream, masquerading as news reporting.

#59:  "Greenstein and two other reporters [wrote articles] based on unnamed and fabricated sources."

#68:  "Fabrication without fact...is a flat out breach."

#88:  "The Trib has butchered this story from day one (made it up is more like it)..."

#95  "It's a big deal when sources are fabricated."

#100:  "Reporters with agendas simply cannot be trusted to vet their sources as well as those with none."

So, in essence, you, a lawyer, have accused this good man of having an agenda and writing an article based on unnamed and fabricated sources, an article that was "made up" to satisfy some PC pipe dream of his employer.  Exactly why you're choosing to take up the sword on this battle is unfathomable to me, but when your "five in-laws" at the club tell you that they have been informed that Butler officials have been investigating this very subject, you owe Teddy Greenstein an apology.  But then again, maybe I'm wrong; maybe an anonymous poster has the exact kind of gravitas to make sweeping unfound accusations about a journalist whose reputation has never been besmirched.

Parse this any way you want.  I'm done wasting bandwith with a professional who doesn't have the courage to say he is wrong, that he's sorry.  Done.

Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2012, 04:24:39 PM »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Terry Lavin

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2012, 07:19:59 PM »
Schmidt/Shivas/Hord:

Just tell everybody on this discussion board what you've already learned from your five in-laws before you lean on the rather slender reed offered by your pal Jud. If they haven't told you yet, I will: you're full of it. A port-a-potty on the 4th of July.

And the fact that you would try to bail yourself out of your scurrilous slanders against Greenstein by linking Lenny Ziehm's doubtful post only proves what a cipher you've shown yourself to be. Show me where he said Teddy had fabricated the story  all he said is that every once in a while, a BUTLER MEMBER says they're going to change the policy. You know, but won't admit that it's more than speculation this time but won't admit it.

Save your money, I won't drink your offering; you're more likely to end up wearing it.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 07:39:45 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jim_Kennedy

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #88 on: February 15, 2012, 01:11:21 PM »
Ziehm created his own speculation at the end of the article:

As for Butler's return to the big-time, the membership issue is tantamount. The club, though, did bring in a top architect, Tom Fazio, to renovate the course in 2005 and two prominent touring pros, Jeff Sluman and Mark Wilson, practice there.

So did Fox News:

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/metro/butler-golf-course-country-club-allow-women-possibly-pga-tournament-20120210

« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 01:14:05 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil McDade

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #89 on: February 15, 2012, 05:56:01 PM »
As a former ink-stained wretch, I have to side a bit with Shivas on this:

-- There are sources, of course, that need to be protected for anonymity, but that's because their disclosure would damage some kind of relationship the source has with the subject at hand. The standards for using anonymous sources vary widely across the industry, and even within a particular newspaper/media outlet. Editors often give wider latitude to reporters based on their experience working with that reporter. The reason these particular sources (I grant at face value it was at least two, the usual standard for publishing, and indicated by the use of the word "sources") were granted anonymity is quite unclear from the story; oftentimes these days, newspapers will go to some length to describe why the source needs to remain anonymous. Presumably the sources are involved somehow in the matter of Butler's change in policy, but it's not clear at all from the story why they were granted anonymity.

-- There are ways to describe sources, in a manner that provides some sort of background or connection to the story, that tells us why they might know the information, and why they may be disclosing it. Such descriptions will often help build credibility for the story. The term "industry sources" strikes me about as broad as you can write for this kind of story -- that's anyone from the blue coats in Far Hills to someone in Finchem's office, to someone in the Western Golf Association, to someone at Butler, to some golf pro -- all of whom one might speculate has some interest in this story, and/or an interest in seeing Butler change its policy. It's an awfully loose characterization of the source -- if I'm an editor working that story, I'd demand something more definitive (absent some rationale as to why that description had to be so broad) -- say, someone in the industry who has a reason for knowing about this study, or some connection to it in some way. "Officials with the PGA Tour, who are interested in a permanent stop for the Tour in Chicago and view Butler as an ideal candidate" lends more credibility to the story than "industry sources."

-- The second story, using the first story as an attribution for comments by Butler officials, clearly strikes me as over the line. I don't think that attribution should've been used; it should've been stricken from the story, and that's a pretty easy thing to check. Loose editing of bad reporting.

-- The Trib's Groundhog-Day-like interest in this story does raise some questions about what's driving the story. Butler's policy is well known, and it hasn't changed in the years since the club was formed. That's not to say a change in the policy isn't newsworthy; it is, as would be stories that provide insights into how and whether such a change is under consideration. But there is a "sky is falling" sense  around this story that, the more time it's published, raises questions about the credibility of those promoting it. Shivas sees it as the Trib.; I'd suggest it goes beyond that, with (this is purely speculation) folks feeding the story to the Trib on a regular basis for their own particular reasons.

Carl Johnson

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2012, 06:00:52 PM »
Not to change the subject, but do you think they'd let her in?  http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012_swimsuit/painting/natalie-gulbis/12_natalie-gulbis_2.html
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 06:02:54 PM by Carl Johnson »

Terry Lavin

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2012, 07:58:24 PM »
Phil,

Nice try defending your pal, but you know just as much as he does about this story: next to nothing.  
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 08:00:32 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

PThomas

  • Total Karma: -17
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #92 on: February 17, 2012, 10:58:58 AM »
fwiw, Greenstein's story is linked in the latest GCSAA Industry Spotlight Email
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Howard Riefs

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #93 on: February 17, 2012, 10:14:23 PM »
Teddy Greenstein with another Butler article .... but in Golf World?

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2012-03/gwar-teddy-greenstein-change-in-thinking

The article doesn't say much that's new. Though, I'm sure some may take issue with this thinly reported statement:

"Butler National's membership remains strong, but the club is believed to have lowered its initiation fee from $175,000 to $125,000."

Believed? Who believes? That's more ambiguous than "unnamed sources."
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #94 on: February 17, 2012, 11:43:30 PM »
Howard:

A couple more gems:

"If the day comes that a pink Flying Lady is launched from the first teemy story cited sources saying the club is conducting a study regarding adding female members--women's groups might declare victory." - In other words, all women play with pink golf balls.

"So to distinguish itself and eliminate the possibility of annoying pool parties, the club went all-male." - If you let women in, you might have to put up with a pool party, at a club that doesn't even have a pool.

"A U.S. Open in 2020, the first open date, could generate more than $4 million for the club." - Not after the USGA or PGA makes their demands.  Does any club ever really make money off of hosting a major?

"Though considering Golf Digest ranks Butler National as the nation's 11th toughest course, companies would be wise to supply free drinks and plan for five-hour rounds." - Five hour rounds with that formula is a severe underestimation.

"So what are the chances the golf shop will begin selling skirts?" - Women's groups might start declaring victory if Teddy stopped using blatantly sexist language.

"A strong block of Butler National members wants to see the world's best test their course. Another group wants the status quo..." - Evidently there was a poll taken.

I've read better (and less sexist) writing on the walls of bathroom stalls.




"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Terry Lavin

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #95 on: February 18, 2012, 11:14:52 AM »
The initiation went down to $125K last year and they're definitely looking for junior members whether the bylaw changes or not. Like everybody else, Butler needs bodies and revenue. It isn't Augusta after all!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #96 on: April 04, 2012, 09:41:44 AM »
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 09:44:17 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

PCCraig

  • Total Karma: -9
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #97 on: April 04, 2012, 09:51:11 AM »
The Ghost's favorite journalist chimes in again:

http://www.bradenton.com/2012/04/03/3980167/mickelson-and-donald-endorse-butler.html



"Mickelson, according to a witness, shot a 68 at Butler National and began raving about the course while on the second green."

"the challenge of making pars on the hard holes, the challenge of making birdies on the easy holes."

 ::)
H.P.S.

Jud_T

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #98 on: April 04, 2012, 10:17:49 AM »
 "The club is poised to decide in the next two months. Some members are hopeful, while others remain certain the 75 percent threshold needed to change club policy will not be reached."

So it seems pretty clear that they are at least putting it to a vote.  75% is a pretty high hurdle though.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tim Nugent

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Butler and women members?
« Reply #99 on: April 04, 2012, 10:22:29 AM »
"Golf fans in Chicago, even those neutral on the gender issue, would love to see Butler National open its doors to women."

Read more here: http://www.bradenton.com/2012/04/03/3980167/mickelson-and-donald-endorse-butler.html#storylink=cpy

This sentence speaks to motive.  BTW, no one ever polled this fan, so where is this poll?  Or is it just a writer imposing his own wishes/desires?  It reminds me of of a Politician stating "this is what the American People want" when it is merely what he/she wants.

That said, I'm sure the USGA would love a centrally located venue like BNGC.  It's where all the freeways meet and Oakbrook has many places for weekend parking and close by hotels and dining not to mention being a driver/9-iron from O'Hare.  The Western was always one of the most profitable when it was held there.
Coasting is a downhill process