The influence of mounds/spines/ridges in putting surfaces

[Patrick_Mucci]

The thread about Pine Valley's 18th green and previous threads got me to thinking how internal features influence play.

I'm not talking about tiers/plateaus, but a singular internal feature such as a mound or spine/ridge.

I immediately thought of the spine/ridge in the back half of the 12th green at NGLA and how dramatically it affects approaches, recoveries and putting.

The 12th green is elevated above the fronting fairway, however, the land leading to the upslope, is sloped downward.
The first third of the green continues to slope upward from the fronting fairway until it flattens out.
About halfway, maybe 60 % back in the upper portion of the green is a spine/ridge that runs, directionally, from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock.

While the mound/spine/ridge isn't dramatically high, it's influence is tremendous.

It dramatically impacts approaches, recoveries and putts, especially ones that have to traverse it from other than a 90 degree angle.

The problem it presents becomes exponentially more pronounced when the hole is cut behind the mound/spine/ridge for a variety of reasons.

First and foremost, if a ball goes long, the recovery is incredibly difficult.
Being in the back bunker may be an advantage.

However, if the hole is cut in front of the mound/spine/ridge recovery from over the green gets exponentially more difficult.

The dilema faced is similar to the dilema created when the hole is cut behind the mound/spine/ridge when the approach is short and short and to the flanks of the green.  So, approaches hit to the appropriate side of the mound/spine/ridge are greatly rewarded.

Approaches and recoveries hit to the opposite side of the mound/spine/ridge are faced with a very difficult putt, especially when the putt has to ride the mound/spine/ridge as opposed to traversing it at a 90 degree angle.  It's not unusual, that putts trying to traverse the mound/spine/ridge don't have the right speed or angle come back to the same side as the golfer started, leaving him that diabolical putt...... again.

While the hole location behind the feature is probably the most challenging, hole locations in front of the feature are no bargain because the front 3rd of the green is sloped and balls hit into that slope usually roll back off the green onto the fronting fairway.

Balls hit long face enormous challenges.

So, here's a relatively small feature that has a dramatic influence on the play of a hole.

CBM's/SR's/CB's horseshoe or thumbprint mound/spine/ridge have similar effects because the back of those greens typically have a  sharp falloff, but, the fronts don't have the relatively steep slope, making shots on the green, but short of the horseshoe feature a little less challenging.

Mountain Ridge has mounds/spine/ridges, but they typically run from the perimeter of the green toward the center of the green.

The feature I'm referencing is detached from the perimeter, and more of a center feature.

I'm trying to recall other greens with this feature.

The 9th at GCGC has the feature, but not enough room behind it to cut a cup.
I believe the back of that green may be extended to create function of the mound/spine/ridge that runs across the green.

Preakness Hills has the same feature as GCGC, but, at the front of the green, and again, there isn't enough of the green in front of the mound/spine/ridge to accomodate viable hole locations.

What other greens have this IDENTICAL feature ?

Hidden Creek has a large mound which functions in a similar fashion.

Since they seem to function so well, on the approach, recovery and putting, Why haven't more of them be crafted, especially in modern greens ?

[David_Tepper]

Pat M. -

Unless I am mistaken, you have touched on this topic before.

I have not seen any of the greens you cite. The 12th green on the Ocean Course at the Olympic Club, which slopes upwards from front to back, has a spine running vertically in the middle that essentially divides the green in half. I think this feature is similar to the ones you mention.

It is also worth noting that a swale or shallow channel that runs thru a green can have a similar impact on play. While not as dramatic as a Biarritz, I know of greens on 3 courses that have a swale running vertically thru the middle of the green that can make two-putting from the "wrong" side of the green quite a challenge.   

DT

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

David I agree the 12th at Olympic Lake reflects this well. As does the 13th at Mountain Lake. It has a high ridge running from front to back down the middle of the green. Both impact how you play and attack the green. ML in particular makes for a interesting 2 put if on the wrong side of the ridge.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David & Tiger,

The vertical ridge seems to present a different challenge than the horizontal ridge.

I recall a prominent architect telling me that fewer than 4 % of approaches are long.
I also recall several PGA Tour Pros telling me that amateur golfers almost never take enough club.
If these statements are reasonably accurate, it would seem that the horizontal ridge would present more of a challenge, especially if the horizontal ridge was located toward the rear of the putting surface and there were dire consequences for going long.

I'm trying to remember other greens that have that feature.

As to horizontal troughs, the 13th at Somerset Hills has a beauty.
The 5th also has a pronounced mound.

I'm trying to recollect if CBM/SR/CB duplicated the 12th green at NGLA at any of their other courses.

Perhaps George Bahto knows.

[Sean_A]

The course I grew up on has quite a few greens with ridges, spines or shelves.  Two are quite pronounced, #s 5 & 6, huge spines splitting greens vertically.  I don't have a good pic of the more outrageous 5th, but even taken from quite a ways short of the 6th, this photo shows the penalty for being wrongsided.  The influence is obvious as many players will try to hot the correct side of the green even if the risk of missing the green on the short side is more of a penalty than hitting the green on the wrong side.  This is an important aspect to mention for vertical spines, I think they work better when when missing on the short side is the worst place to be. 

To this day, Grosse Isle still has one of the best sets of greens I know of.  


Ciao

[Joey Chase]

I remember very vividly there were several greens at Quaker Ridge on the back nine that had large mounds in the middle of the greens.  It really made it quite a challenge to place your ball on the correct side of the mound.  With the speed they get those greens, stopping a ball if it was on the other side of the mound could become nearly impossible.

Our home club here at Crumpin-Fox has a mound in the middle of the 11th green.  A par three with a fairly wide green, at about 150 yards on average.  It is one of my favorites on the course, if for no other reason, the originality of it.  If you are on the wrong side of it, a two putt is well earned.

[SL_Solow]

I have always liked features of this type.  They are natural, require strategy and can have an effect that is significant without being built in outsized proportions.  While it is not well known, one of my favorite features of this type is on the second hole at my home club, Briarwood CC in Deerfield Il.  A par 4, 437 from the back tees, 385 from the members' tees, it features a middle sized green guarded by a large bunker on the right front.   The green slopes slopes from back to front for the most part.  But there is a ridge that runs diagonally from back to front and from left to right creating a "fall off" back right  any hole location on the right side of the green is significantly impacted by the ridge, particularly given the bunker short right.  Playing away and to the left makes for a lengthy putt which must gauge the sidehill impact of the ridge.  It doesn't look like much but it impacts evey shot.  These types of features illustrate how relatively small features, properly located, can create real interest.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I remember someone mention that Blue Mound had a similar green.

I wonder if BM had the doughnut that was once part of the 12th/NGLA? 

[JC Urbina]

Pat Mucci,

If you like the influence of the spines and ridges internally you need to make a trip to Yeamans Hall.  I think you will like what you see, very influential in the way you approach the greens.  My favorites are # 5,17. 

[Jason Topp]

My course features a number of such spines and I think they provide very interesting challenges, partcularly where the green in general slopes with the natural slope of the surrounding land.  Putting from the wrong side of the spine is very difficult but usually possible.  Putting from below or above the hole can create doubt not only as to amount of break but even as to the direction a putt breaks.  Putting from 30 feet away on the correct side of the spine can be easier than putting from 20 feet on the wrong side. 

Because the correct side is also usually the short side, spines can create an interesting decision on the approach - hit to the middle of the green knowing that a two putt will be difficult or hit to the corners, realizing that a chip or bunker shot may be necessary but also may be easier than an overly "safe" iron shot to the middle.

They do not need to be very big to provide a ton of interest.

[Brian Chapin]

Pat - Do you think the 18th at Arcola is a good example of this feature? 

[David_Tepper]

"My course features a number of such spines"

Jason T. -

What course is your course?

DT

[Sean_A]

Pat Mucci,

If you like the influence of the spines and ridges internally you need to make a trip to Yeamans Hall.  I think you will like what you see, very influential in the way you approach the greens.  My favorites are # 5,17. 

The thing I found most interesting about YHC's greens were the ridges formed between front bunkers.  This effectively creates a false front, but the ridges also tend to feed toward the bunkers.  Not only that, but they could feed weak approaches from the left and feeding right and vice versa.  I don't think I have seen this done so well anywhere else.

Here is an obvious example - the 10th


but #4 is more subtle and just as effective.


Ciao  

[Jason Topp]

What course is your course?

DT

Oak Ridge Country Club.  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/oak-ridge-country-club/

I didn't portray the greens very closely when I wrote about it. 

[David_Madison]

Patrick,

Old Town Club in Winston Salem... The third green is a thing of simplistic beauty. It's essentially an oval green, gently canted, except that just back left of center is a cigar-shaped mound or hump running left and right. The feature doesn't tie into anything exterior to the green. It's not terribly pronounced, just severe enough that with the green running at decent speed it places extreme pressure on both ball striking and then putting if you don't place your approach in the same area as the cup relative to the hump.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Tepper,

I have touched on this subject before.

I think one of the greatest challenges on a green is when you have to putt with and across a ridge/spine.

The read necessary, the touch necessary, the balance of speed and line to get that putt precisely where you want it is very, very difficult for me, thus, it puts greater emphasis on properly locating my approach shot.

I think it's an architectural feature that's value is exponentially greater than tiers or plateaus.

Yet, you rarely see these features, hence, you have to ask, why ?  Or rather, where are they and why aren't there more of them ?

[archie_struthers]

 

Pat you baited me earlier re: Hidden Creek's 8th hole, and the dead elephant mound there.  It doesn't qualify as a spine ,it's far too bulbous. As stated earlier it just doesn't fit on a fun golf course.

Long hitters can reach the green , and accuracy isn't really key, the safe landing area is almost 60 yards wide. The chip is challenging , due to the severity of the greens contours. No matter where you hit it the putt can be next to impossible, which just doesn't work for me. If the risk reward on the tee shot was more dire, the hole wouldn't be as controversial to me. You would have to think hard about how to play the tee shot. You can argue that one must hit it on the correct side of the mound, but the argument is weak!  A shorter hitter must hit a semi blind shot to a severely canted green which is far more difficult than putting or chipping to it.


They have moved the tee back some, but from the members tees long hitters have way too much of an edge with little risk to smash and chip, or putt. To single this hole out on a course with many excellent holes ( 3, 4, 10 et al )  as a feature to emulate leaves me cold.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

A long hitter does have an advantage.

But, what would you do to the hole after you removed the mound.

I suspect that some object to the hole, in part, due to the blindness and the desire for guaranteed outcomes.

There's an element of chance on that hole, and the requirement for a very deft touch should your drive leave you to contend with the mound.

I like the hole. it certainly presents a birdie opportunity to most golfers.

Perhaps "disappointment" that one didn't birdie the hole is a reason some find the mound objectionable.

With so many subtle putts on that golf course I kind of like the blatant signal the architecture on that green, sends to your eye and brain.

[archie_struthers]

 

Pat , I love blind shots , particularly second shots .  Quirk is awesome, and if given another chance, would incorporate as much as taste allows. However the green in question is over the top,  and not to  be emulated. Great respect for C &. C's work , lots of excellent holes at Hidden Creek, just not this one.

Accuracy isn't a must , so distance becomes .the key to scoring on this hole. When the pin is behind or on the mound, skill becomes less critical on the lag, as no matter how good it comes down to  making a five to ten footer. Buff said , it's easier to be acrostic than builder. 

Ps. The third green at Twisted Dune  isn't very good either lol

[Jim Briggs]

Archie,

I would tend to disagree with you on the fact that accuracy isn't a must and that distance is the key and I'm fortunate enough to play the hole quite a bit.  I'm a 15 hcp playing from the member tees and not a big hitter.  I'm happy to get over the ridgeline.  For me, accuracy is everything on this hole.  Right side pin, I want to be right of the centerline bunker.  Left for a left side pin.  If I've done that, I have a much more straightforward chip/pitch, then if I have to play across the pimple/hump/buried elephant.  The hole, for me, gets much more difficult if I haven't hit my drive in the area I want.

My son, who is just turning 15, can drive the green from the members tees, and I can't tell you how many times he may have driven the green or apron pin high, but on the wrong side of the green.  That next shot for him takes a huge amount of creativity and flawless execution to give himself a good chance for birde.  I like my chances on that hole against him any time I have hit it accurately, but he has hit it long on the wrong side (and he has a pretty decent short game).

I feel the hole is a bit of an equalizer for a shorter hitter like me because for me it is all about the accuracy and not the length as my son is starting to figure out (now not having the skill to actually hit it straight frequently is something that I need to work on).

I also disagree (respectfully) with an earlier statement of yours regarding fun, and it lacking on this hole.  As I frequently don't hit the ball where I want, I was over the ridge left needing to play to a back rightish pin.  No way I could fly it over the hump and have it stop, so I creatively played it about 15 feet right of the pin and had the contours on the back right of the green sling it around to the hole.  Tap in birdie.  Most creative and fun shot that I actually pulled off as envisioned in all my rounds there, and probably ever.

Perhaps its different for a bigger, more skilled hitter than me, but I actually consider accuracy to be at a premium over distance and consider the hole to be a bunch of fun (not the least of which has to do with my son grumbling how he lost that hole to me despite the fact that he can outdrive me by 50 yards...).

Best,
Jim
  

[archie_struthers]

 

Jim, respect your opinion, we just disagree. The putt is quite a challenge, and does require imagination and green reading skill.

Now here's my but....lol.....you can really hit it quite crooked , if a long hitter, and still have a fairly easy on to the green . You can putt it or chip it ,as a flop doesn't fit the shot. From short of the centerline bunker , the second shot is semi blind and requires quite a good second shot. My shot from just off the green is infinitely easier.  It's not like I eluded some pot bunker or swale with my tee shot. I just had to hit it far in a 80 yard wide grid to get an easier shot than you.   

Your son has youth and power, when he refines his skill, he has a huge edge on you on this hole, too much in my opinion. We can respectfully disagree , it makes the world go round !