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Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« on: December 18, 2001, 10:07:27 AM »
In the latest GOLFWEEK, Brad Klein writes about Kinloch,
a new, Lester George throwback-styled course located in Old Dominion, VA. The course is the recipient of the GD's "Best New Private" award, and Brad goes on to state that he feels it may be the best course in Virginia.

The course earns high marks, especially in the areas of feature-shaping and conditioning. One comment I couldn't
help but notice in his critique was his description of the "featured hardwood" on the inside of #15's dog-leg
as "excessive." The aerial shows it to be a solitary tree
that could potentially block a second shot to the green if the first is not hit far enough, or to the right side enough.

Whether it's excessive or not I'm not sure. Pictures can only tell so much. But it got me thinking. There seems to be a real movement to better manage the tree population on courses. Indeed, they have compromised the design intention on many, many courses.

What do you think about the use of single trees to encourage
shot-making? They can dictate shot length and shot direction.
I've seen some left and put to what I feel is pretty good use (Inniscrone) and I've seen some large hardwoods left in the middle of the fairway, with no strategic interest whatsoever.
Just a conversation piece really.You simply hope your tee-shot doesn't ricochet off the trunk.

Any thoughts? From the pictures, Kinloch looks like it would
a lot of fun.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2001, 10:49:21 AM »
If it's the ONLY tree on the course, it would be outstanding to use it for strategy. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"chief sherpa"

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2001, 11:24:07 AM »
Craig,
I've looked at a couple of photos (which I will enclose links to) of the hole you are talking about. The first shot is the overhead one you referenced. The second set are photos from the tee.

Look at these pics

http://www.golflinktravel.com/deg/images/kinloch-aerial-11.jpg

http://www.landscapesunlimited.com/Kinloch/pictures/20001207160751Hole%2015.jpg

http://www.landscapesunlimited.com/Kinloch/pictures/20000817123245Hole%2015.jpg

I agree it may be a bit excessive. The idea is that if you take a shot down the right side, you will be able to take the tall hardwood out of play. However, as you can see in the shots taken from the tee, there is yet ANOTHER hardwood which will need to be perilously negotiated in order to secure a decent position.  So there is not a SINGLE strategic tree on this hole, but TWO.

The consolation is this hole is only 300 yards long, and so, for the most part, the second tree can be taken out of play with as little as a correctly placed 4 iron. Moreover, i suspect the popular play will be to try and drive the green, taking advantage of the tongue of fairway in front of the green that invites exactly that type of play.

I agree though, this place looks like a lot of fun.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2001, 11:28:15 AM »
Also, can you believe that the entire course was sodded - fairways and rough?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2001, 12:07:39 PM »
I like the use of a single tree to create a dogleg. I don't like the use of a single tree to create a barrier for an approach shot.

There's a venerable course in the Twin Cities called Keller, where the St. Paul Open was played for decades (Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus and Palmer all played there over the years) that features two holes with fully mature oak trees growing directly in front of the greens. One's a par 3 of about 160 yards, the other's a medium-length par 4. A normal-trajectory approach shot with a 7- or 8-iron will clear either tree, so they are not physically prohibitive barriers to the green (although a mis-hit, obviously, will nail the trees); but they are certainly mental barriers -- especially to higher handicap players -- and they do eliminate the possibility of playing a low shot to the green from straight-on.

I don't get the point. This course has plenty of trees to look at; the fact that two of them jumped out of the woods and took root in front of greens may seem quaint to some players, but ultra-gimmicky to me, no matter how old and stately the trees are.

A new course in our area features a tall, slim tree about 40 yards in front of one of its greens, and though it's a lovely tree on an otherwise mostly treeless course, it doesn't belong where it is, blocking all of the green from the right side of the fairway.

I can think of many individual trees I've hit too often in my golf career, trees that I'm not on good relations with, trees my ball just can't stay away from. But they all belong where they are, and it's my job to avoid them. The three trees I've just mentioned ought to go.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

BillV

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2001, 12:18:49 PM »
Tom Paul, don't fall over, but i'd like to play (Have only seen) Belfair East #16 which has 1 magnificent tree in play in the landing area  (Par5).  It is a great tall, skinny tree that should be according to what I saw, in play more the less well you hit your tee shot.  The rest of the hole is about 65 yards wide and wide open.  

Who's played the hole?  Is it any good?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2001, 01:05:11 PM »
I am inspired this has come up. My home course has a cypress tree in the middle of the fairway on a par 5 that makes the 2nd shot on the hole. it is 135 from the front of the green and crreates many different ways to play hole and leaves only two angles to truelu go for the green from. There is also a par 4 at hidden creek in Navarre Beach florida which uses a tree in the fairway as a strategy element on the 2nd shot to a short 360 par 4. It is great too. Pelican point in Baton Rouge uses one on a long par 4 18th to impact the tee shot and  it is not as well recieved.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BillV

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2001, 01:11:02 PM »
The tree in the first tree at Mayacoo Lakes is in the right place in the fairway to function as the one at Belfair seems to.  It is actually OK with the redanman for some reason.   ::)

There are or at least used to be trees in the fairway at the Old Briar at the Old Playboy resort courses in Wisconsin (I have no idea if it still exists or not-PAGING Dick Daley...).  For some reason, trees in the middle of the fairway bother me less than those in play at the side.  I admit I like central hazards, and the central trees may just seem more creative.

All of the trees I've mentioned function as tree trunks, not bushy trees such as the Stanford and Eisenhower trees.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2001, 01:20:18 PM »
Interesting thread Craig.

Probably the most famous single "strategy" tree is the "Eisenhower" tree on #17 at Augusta. Not much of a problem for the pros but this feature has survived many "renovations".

One of the weirdest single trees I ever encountered is at Wentworth by the Sea in New Hampshire. I can't remember the hole number, but it is on the back nine, the tee shot requires a forced carry over marsh of about one seventy five to a narrow sloped fairway and then the player is faced with a short iron to an elevated green with a tree in the middle of the green! Really, in the middle of the green! It presents some pretty interesting chipping,putting strategies sometimes! The green has some contour to it as well. I wouldn't want a steady diet of this stuff, but it sure is fun once in a while.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2001, 01:33:30 PM »
The best tree that I know that defines the turn in a dogleg is on the 6th hole (15th tournament time) at Westchester CC. It used to be a defining turn point where only Nicklaus and later Norman would try to blow a ball over the tree. Now a good % of teh field can do this leaving wedge approaches.  For us normal guys, its still a mighty impressive incentive to either play more to the left or really carefully shape the shot from left to right.

Another single tree I'll bet BillV will agree to is on the 11th hole at Huntsville (Rees).  It's a beautiful odd shaped tree that is smack in the center of a split fairway option about 100 yards off the tee.  This tree is totally out of play if you just make a decision to go to the right or left fairway.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BillV

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2001, 01:48:46 PM »
Geoffrey

Agreed, but it is really an art piece, not a part of the golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Mingay

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2001, 01:53:09 PM »
If you're going use a tree as an integral part of the design strategy of a hole, I recommend that you also determine how the hole will play when the tree is dead and gone; because it's going to inevitably die eventually and, with that, change the strategy of the hole.

There's nothing worse than a 300 yard par 4 made interesting by a live oak in the middle of the fairway becoming immediately dull and boring after that tree's down during an overnight windstorm, or has succumbed to disease.

If a bunker will work as well as a tree, I'd use the bunker every time.

Although, as you guys have pointed out above, there are several good holes that feature an impressive tree as part of their strategy. But, ask yourself, how will the strategy of those holes change when those trees are gone?

That's my question  ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2001, 02:26:00 PM »
SPDB-
Thanks for the links. The first picture in particular seems
to really offer a contrasting view than the overhead I had seen. The tree doesn't look like it works as well as I thought it might. The tee shot landing area appears small. How small will it appear in 15 years I wonder?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2001, 07:13:25 PM »
The third hole at Trysting Tree in Corvallis Oregon makes good use of one large tree.  The hole is a mid-length par 4 that doglegs right.  The fairway sits up on a ridge with rough down below for the player who can't carry.  The hole is cape-like with the huge tree being there to really separate the long hitter from the short one.  The shorter hitter must play left and leave a long second, while the longer hitter plays right, carries the rough and has a short pitch to the green.  It really emphasizes the difference between players.  I'm sure all the Oregon State players and other college players just boom it right, but others do have to think.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned #17 at Cypress yet.

We saw a lot of trees in the middle of fairways on the Futures Tour over the last two years.  In most cases they were just annoyances and didn't add much.  I also hate it when they let the rough and junk grow up around the tree in the middle of a fairway so that you have lost balls.  The tree should be enough trouble without wasting peoples time looking for balls in there.  Todd Eckenrode, this goes for the tree on #1 at Barona Creek.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2001, 07:21:41 PM »
Craig,

LON HINKLE called me and wants to know if you'll accept his opinion on a single tree ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

archie

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2001, 07:30:11 PM »
A single tree in the right spot can be very good! At my home club Greate Bay (Willie Park 1923)in Somers Point, NJ there is an excellent tree that protects the tee shot on the 5th hole, a good 425 yard par four. It is situated approximately 100 yards off the tee in the right side of the fairway and makes you cut the tee shot, or hit it super high, to get in position for your approach. I think it is exceptional because the average higher handicapper, who slices or hits it under the tree, is not really impacted like the good player. Likewise Galloway National has a tree on number 7 that makes you think about what to hit off the tee, or makes you shape your approach if you get too close, neither are too penal but both work.

Conversely I took down a big beautiful oak tree two winters ago at Greate Bay #8, which sat right in front of the shorter hitters for their second shot on this medium length par four. I thought it was really out of place, particularly when you saw the cant of the green. You should have heard my members howl at first, using the now famous "that tree made the hole"!
Luckily for me the furor died down, and we continue to weed out some particularly overgrown specimens with good success.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2001, 08:16:56 PM »
JohnV, what about the short par 4 on the front nine at Tokatee (maybe #5?) with the TWO trees which block the green from all but very straight or very short tee balls!  Love that course and that hole! :D  Tokatee was my favorite course in Oregon until I traveled down to Bandon!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2001, 08:49:35 PM »
There was a magnificent pine in the middle of the second shot on the very long 9th at the Monster course
at the Concord Hotel. It must have been about 60 to 70 yards short of the gree, "miles high", and was positioned so
perfectly it allowed options over it (hah!), under the high trimmed branches or around either side. The green there has all sorts of wings on it and every time you went up there it was a different problem with that pine.

I think a tree in the fairway was very funky and something
I am not really a fan of, but this one I really enjoyed.

RIP  - it’s been dead for a number of years
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2001, 03:00:46 PM »
Gee guys the tree by the green on the 18th at pebble is just merely being replaced with its death, also the one that slightly impacts the tee shot is a nice feature too
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2001, 03:59:09 PM »
Bill McBride, I almost mentioned that, but mentioning two Ted Robinson designs would probably bring the wrath of Naccarato down on me.  ;)

Tokatee is a really fun course that doesn't get the recognition it deserves because it is somewhat remote.  Another hole with a good tree is the par 5 12th.  You have to challange the tree at the corner of the first dogleg to really get around the second one and get to the green in two.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom_Egan

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2001, 04:44:57 PM »
There are three possibilities in evaluating the strategic use of a single tree:

1.  The course was designed by Mackenzie, Ross, Raynor, Hugh Wilson, Tillinghast, Thomas, Coore/Crenshaw or Doak.  Supurb use of nature; exquisitely creative and thought provoking; produces deep rapture in Tommy N. and others on this site.

2.  The course was designed by anyone you can think of whose last name is Jones, Fazio or Dye.  An affront to our sharply honed aesthetic and strategic sensibilities; 911 for tree removal; does this designer really know or care about anything but expensive-to-maintain eye candy?

3.  The course was designed by someone other than the above.  OHMIGAWD!!! Now I have to make a stand (open to criticism by all who read it on this site).  Unless I'm certain that it's an indispensible strategic cornerstone of the hole, I'd better be critical, if only on the grounds that we ought to kill trees on golf courses wherever we find them.

One other option exists.  The course was designed by one of the "masters" in option 1, but the tree has grown in since the diety left the scene.  In this case, there's probable cause that a felony has been committed by the current and all past Greens Committees.  Contact Pat Mucci for the appropriate remedy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2001, 07:34:27 PM »
John V, I had no idea that was a Ted Robinson layout! Jeez, don't alert the GCA police!  It is a fun layout.  Last time I played there my brother hit 7 wood to 2 ft on #12. You should meet him, he's a very solid 5 who lives in Eugene.  He is unintimidated by Bandon Dunes which I find pretty cool!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2001, 08:40:25 PM »
TomE:

Pat Mucci does not really have the appropriate remedy but he might disinter those dead Green Chairmen in an attempt to uncover their club politics. (smiley)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategic Use of a Single Tree
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2001, 06:17:27 AM »
Ed Baker:

I fail to see the "strategy" in the Eisenhower tree. The decision on the tee is simple. If you can hit over the tree, you do. If you can't, you go around. It used to be no problem for the pros, but it certainly is since they moved the tee back a few years ago. Many of the players at the Masters can not carry the tree anymore and have no choice but to play up the narrow slot right of the tree. From the back tee, that tree is simply a nuisance and, because of it, I think the 17th is perhaps the worst hole on the course.

BTW, ask Jose Marie if the tree is "no problem". It almost cost him the tournament.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
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