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Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2012, 06:33:43 PM »
Howard,

"Surprise" is a fair characterization of the responses I have detected.

As for the question of whether one selector is more influential, I am certain that one is convinced he is. It is not yet clear if others share that view. I suspect that's about half of what is going on here.

The other half is just good old fashioned difficulty reaching a complex decision when you are dealing with eight really smart, sophisticated design teams. Nobody ad libbed this one. They were all polished, well-thought out and creative, though probably not equally so.

By the way, the order was alphabetical by first letter of design team.


Thanks, Brad. Very interesting...


--------

The way this process is unfolding, I wouldn't be surprised if the panel is deadlocked on two designers and asks that those two return next month for another round of presentations.  
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Emile Bonfiglio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2012, 06:46:12 PM »
By the way, the order was alphabetical by first letter of design team.

I thought it was funny that Tom Doak changed his companies name to AAAARenassance Golf Design 3 weeks ago, makes more sense now.
You can follow me on twitter @luxhomemagpdx or instagram @option720

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2012, 09:26:05 PM »
By the way, the order was alphabetical by first letter of design team.

I thought it was funny that Tom Doak changed his companies name to AAAARenassance Golf Design 3 weeks ago, makes more sense now.

:)

Actually, I liked how the order worked out for us.  Renaissance Golf Design went right after Nicklaus Design, and before Robert Trent Jones II.

I did notice that ours was the only company NOT named after the principal of the firm.  Had I named it "Tom Doak Design" we would have gone last, just after Thomson Perrett.  But, I really don't think going last would be an advantage in such a setting.  By the end, the jurors had to be pretty tired.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 09:27:43 PM by Tom_Doak »

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2012, 11:06:16 PM »
Jeff,
This is your second post in relation to you don´t seem to see any difference in construction cost on which design team is selected and in the last one you stated you were not really familiar what the JN group usually spends in constructing a course. I will try to shed some light on my point of view. I think there is a big difference and will try to explain why I think the winning team should be budget concerned and its important sending the proper message to the world of future golf development that cost should be controlled and in my opinion a maximum five to six million dollars should be allocated.
The JN group almost always to my knowledge works with an outside contractor compared to other teams that have small efficient in house staff. General contractors normally make somewhere between 25 to 35% of the overall price, so there is the first major difference. Another major difference is they spent a lot of effort through the years creating a marketing name in golf development similar to Rolex in the watch market. They will do everything to protect that market perception and is always a priority and whether the client makes makes money or not is secondary. They protect their business and their reputation and how the clients pays for their request and whether the project has an overall success is of little concern, as long as the client doesn´t go bankrupt, obviously that could have some market drawbacks on them indirectly. Who can blame them, most large corporations all do the same. Four Seasons is a good example, they make money, a flat management fee if the hotel makes money and they make money when you lose ten or twenty million dollars. They won´t cut corners in any way or form, or lower their superior level of service to lower losses for the owner because it could affect their overall market perception. After 9-11, 42 out of 45 hotels in their management lost money but they had a banner year! Where am I going with this? Sometimes the criteria and the demands of large corporations such as the JN group, ask for specific construction techniques that are really not necessary in my opinion and the owner is asked to absorb these expenses in order to protect the design team´s superior market image. For example, most all of the Buenos Aires area has heavy clay- loam topsoil. Not ideal but not bad especially for Bermuda grass that seems to grow very well in that particular climate. Bermuda grass does well in all areas in Buenos Aires including concrete and asphalt. My wife´s grandmother is 104 and has a spectacular lush Bermuda grass lawn. Most courses are designed with good surface drainage and some catch basin and can open up in couple of hours following a heavy rain. In a recent project in that area they insisted on 12 to 16 inches of sand be brought in for fairways and tapering down to six to four inches in the rough. Cost for the client an extra four million dollars. They started out doing just that, the project stopped for a couple of year before completing construction and they went in and stripped some of the sand off from some of the first nine fairways and the driving range completely. Not sure how the final holes were done but it wasn´t with12-16 inches of sand. This is just one example, there are more and I like to pretend, I don´t like to bad mouth anybody, so we will leave it at one. (It’s a market perception thing for me) The owner just came to the conclusion there was just no way, to recuperate the investment, the numbers were not working. In my opinion, 9 points out of ten can be achieved for lets say five million dollars, 9.1 will cost 6.5 million, 9.2 eight or nine million, the more one strives for perfection the cost rises dramatically to the point if you seek perfection or ten point be prepared to spend over twenty million and let´s not forget to add on the 25 percent let´s say for a contractor. Some of the young guys are having success because they are creating courses that get rated higher and seem to appeal to a broader market at reasonable final price. We have lived through sixty million dollar golf courses being built in the dessert and flying in trees to be transplanted via helicopter. I feel golf will have a better chance of growing world-wide, when we can leave this era behind us and thank god there are a few boutiques firms out there that specialize in creating quality golf experiences and can get it done in a reasonable number, that’s their niche they have created! By doing so, the cost saving are passed on to the end user and more people can have access to these quality golf experiences, which should directly or indirectly help grow the game. The overall cost becomes an even bigger factor in cultures such as South America where it is still mainly practiced on weekends only. 
       One final comment, you mention the high cost of bulk earth movement for spectators mounding ect. It seems to me with all the new construction of hotels, roads, stadium ect., from the upcoming World cup in 2014 and Olympics in 2016 there has to be lots of contractors looking to get rid of dirt and the cost of hauling it out of the city is a big number. I would imagine the city could get all they wanted for free and maybe even get paid to take it off the hands of contractors. I forget the number of new hotels being built but I think it was double of what they currently have, that’s a lot of dirt coming out of those foundations and no place to put it.                                     

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2012, 11:21:55 PM »
Brad or anybody else!
Can anyone comfirm that GN sent an associate as Jeff heard or is this top secrect information that we have to wait until 2016 also!

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2012, 11:34:42 PM »
Wow, is any of this back and forth good for the actual game of golf?  I am sure it is good for the Olympics as well as the winning (and maybe even losing) bidder, but what does the game (as an Olympic sport) have to gain from all this consternation?  Do we really feel like one design over another is going to produce a more worthy "gold medalist"?

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2012, 12:37:08 AM »
Actually, I liked how the order worked out for us.  Renaissance Golf Design went right after Nicklaus Design, and before Robert Trent Jones II.

That might have been the perfect slot to draw in Renaissance's case. The perfect opportunity to contrast oneself very, very nicely from those other two.




American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Matt Vandelac

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2012, 01:22:08 AM »
Hi Randy:
I agree with the boutique guys being the way of the future for costs and the game.  Hopefully the days or unbelievalbe construction costs are gone.  Also, I'd really like to know more about the 104 year old's turf...does she get out and pop a few wedges from time to time?

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2012, 03:21:24 AM »
Randy, as I suggested in my Golfweek post, if the Brazil committee technical people did their homework they will know how each of the design teams really builds in the field.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 03:23:18 AM by Brad Klein »

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2012, 08:35:12 AM »
Randy, as I suggested in my Golfweek post, if the Brazil committee technical people did their homework they will know how each of the design teams really builds in the field.
Brad,
Yes, and the associated cost. And I feel after reading the article you feel that this could be more of a factor in the consideration of a final candidate. It may come down to the final selection, more than just a big household professional golfer household name! Something, I have been preaching since day one but Jeff´s comments lead me to beleive from his post that he doesn´t seem to feel the same way and the cost will be pretty much the same no matter who is selected and that is not the case.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #60 on: February 08, 2012, 08:42:25 AM »
It's tougher to be a glass-half-full kind of guy every day, particularly if one doesn't have blind faith in the golf gods on high, yet hope springs eternal.  Are we the only 1400 guys on the planet that are on pins and needles over this thing?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #61 on: February 08, 2012, 08:46:39 AM »
Are we the only 1400 guys on the planet that are on pins and needles over this thing?

1399 (1499?).  I am not.  It's interesting and important, but in the grand scheme of things?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #62 on: February 08, 2012, 08:52:58 AM »
Carl,

In the grand scheme of things we're all a bunch of ants crawling on a rock in space, but this is about as exciting as GCA intrigue gets IMO...at least until they fumble the ball....
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 08:55:52 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #63 on: February 08, 2012, 09:26:08 AM »
Carl,

In the grand scheme of things we're all a bunch of ants crawling on a rock in space, but this is about as exciting as GCA intrigue gets IMO...at least until they fumble the ball....
or score a touchdown! That possibility is still alive!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #64 on: February 08, 2012, 09:26:35 AM »
Brad or anybody else!
Can anyone comfirm that GN sent an associate as Jeff heard or is this top secrect information that we have to wait until 2016 also!

Randy:

I believe that all of the principals were in Rio, contrary to some rumors beforehand.  I said hello to Player and Thomson and Nicklaus personally, and just missed Greg Norman, who was doing an interview in the next room while we were doing a dry run of our presentation on Monday.

I don't know if Lorena Ochoa or Annika Sorenstam were there or not.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #65 on: February 08, 2012, 09:31:14 AM »

I don't know if Lorena Ochoa or Annika Sorenstam were there or not.

Annika was in Rio, according to The Golf Channel:

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/morning-drive/annika-sorenstam-february-2-2012/
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #66 on: February 08, 2012, 09:31:42 AM »
Annika was there.

Tom, Who was "we"?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #67 on: February 08, 2012, 09:38:53 AM »
Annika was there.

Tom, Who was "we"?

Adam:

I don't know if I'm allowed to say who else was part of my presentation.  It's not public information.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #68 on: February 08, 2012, 10:12:06 AM »
Annika was there.

Tom, Who was "we"?

Adam:

I don't know if I'm allowed to say who else was part of my presentation.  It's not public information.
I would have went with Pele, makes more sence than some of the other co-designeers, especially with three Brazilians on the board.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2012, 10:42:51 AM »
Tom, Thanks. I suppose a description of who, might not hurt you. i.e. Associate or that long hitting Sarah.

Chrissy Teigen was likely available too.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2012, 10:48:42 AM »
Randy & Adam
I like your partner ideas very much!

I probably would have went with my friend Eddie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aYwVN_TGHk

Let's see one of the judges try to get away from this world champion.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2012, 06:08:33 PM »
bumping up Adam's photo and wondering which architects are flying to Rio this week.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2012, 03:15:19 PM »
bumping up Adam's photo and wondering which architects are flying to Rio this week.

From AP:

The golf design candidates were invited to Brazil for the announcement on Wednesday, but it wasn’t clear if they would attend.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympic-golf-course-designer-to-be-announced-during-ioc-visit-to-rio-de-janeiro/2012/03/06/gIQAjZ9nuR_story.html
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2012, 03:18:58 PM »
Sounds like the Heisman trophy award show, doesn't it?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside dope on Rio 2016
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2012, 04:00:06 PM »
say "Nawal El Moutawakel" 10 times fast and you get the job...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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