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JESII

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Re: "That's just silly" - 17 at TPC Scottsdale
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2012, 03:18:57 PM »
David,

Where did this stat come from? Did the players fill out a survey?



Yet in 2004 only about 30 percent of the field went for the green from the tee.   Seventy percent of the field played away from a reachable par four...




I haven't played the hole but have watched it on tv for 20 years and read plenty of analysis on here. I would be surprised if the great majority of players weren't aiming.just barely short left of the green.

Do you think it's possible a highly strategic hole for you may not be as strategic for Tour players?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 04:10:24 PM by Jim Sullivan »

BCrosby

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Re: "That's just silly" - 17 at TPC Scottsdale
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2012, 03:21:35 PM »
David -

Allow me to say on the record that the 10th at Riviera is a great, strategic hole. But there are good reasons to think that it doesn't play that way for pros. See my post above. There are many very good Golden Age holes that have suffered the same fate at the hands of the pros. How you get from there to the conclusion that I am "bashing" the 10th at Riv. escapes me.

There are indeed good reasons to think that the 17th at TPC plays more strategically FOR PROS than the 10th at Riviera does FOR PROS. The scoring spreads there last week is a reason to think so. Simply watching the pros play that hole is another. I don't know why that should be so shocking. The game Geo. Thomas knew was a very different game from the one Kyle Stanley et al play.

I thought we had alredy gone throught this lake thing once, but let's go through it again. Yes, part of what makes the scoring spreads at the 17th at TPC wider is the existence of the lake. But note - and this is the main point - no one is obligated to bring the lake into play unless they have elected to take an agressive line to the green from the tee. That so many did so signals the strength of that temptation and the quality of the hole's strategies. To gain the benefits of putting for an eagle, pros voluntarily risked a ball in the water. Relevant is not the severity of the lake, but the fact that players volunatirly exposed themselves to water ball penalties as part of a larger strategic calculation.

Let me come at this another way. If no one played the hole strategically, if everyone laid back with a 4i off the tee or if the hole were 100 yards longer, there would have been be very few balls in the lake and scoring spreads would have been much more narrow. The lake was a major contributor to the wider spreads not just because it is a severe penalty, but because it is a severe penalty and many players willingly and without compulsion risked it. And that is a sign of a very good strategic hole.

Bob

 

 

 
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 03:42:07 PM by BCrosby »

JESII

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Re: "That's just silly" - 17 at TPC Scottsdale
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2012, 04:11:42 PM »
I don't believe you can have strategy without penalty.

DMoriarty

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Re: "That's just silly" - 17 at TPC Scottsdale
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2012, 05:34:29 PM »
Where did this stat come from? Did the players fill out a survey?
I compiled the stats in 2004 based on the PGA shot tracker display of where the golfers hit their drives and the clubs they hit. That year about seven in ten laid up with something other than a driver or three wood (68.6%.)  Here are the numbers I posted in 2004:  For the week 31.4% went for the green (139/442).  Of those, only 4.3% actually ended up on the green (6/139.)  On Thursday 41% of the golfers (32/78) went for the green.

Quote
I haven't played the hole but have watched it on tv for 20 years and read plenty of analysis on here. I would be surprised if the great majority of players weren't aiming.just barely short left of the green.
This was definitely not the case in 2004, nor has it been the case in any of the many tournaments where I have stood and watched group after group play this hole.  (On t.v. they love to show golfers who go for it, so perhaps this is why you think they all do.) Maybe more play toward the green now than did eight years ago, I don't know.  But a great majority?  I don't think so. The trouble with your plan of attack is that these golfers want birdie, and the green is extremely small and tricky, and it is extremely difficult to get up and down for birdie from close to the green.  The ground slopes make what you suggest a difficult task, and even if successful leave a ver difficult up and down.  The great majority apparently like their chances better from 80 to 100 yards and well to the left.

It is a brilliant strategic hole that defies conventional wisdom.  

Quote
Do you think it's possible a highly strategic hole for you may not be as strategic for Tour players?
Sure, but this isn't such a hole. Tour players have a real choice of how to try and play this to get their birdie. In contrast, the vast majority of lesser golfers would be fools to think that hitting driver at the green or "just barely short left" made the most sense for them.  But many will go for it anyway, perhaps because neither the layup or approach are simple matters for them either.

Quote
I don't believe you can have strategy without penalty.
Neither do I, depending on what you mean by "penalty." I don't think a hole need have an imminent and obvious risk of a rule book mandated penalty stroke in order for it to be considered strategic.  Yet such holes are precisely the kind which will register a wide scoring spectrum.  Riviera 10 presents much subtler "penalties" or costs.  Try to drive the green and fail, or try to have it both ways and try to snuggle up "just barely short left" and the golfer might find himself with a very difficult up and down for birdie, even though the golfer may be only steps off the green.   Playing it safe and trusting one's wedge game isn't without risk either.
_______________________________________________________________________________

BCrosby wrote:
Quote
Allow me to say on the record that the 10th at Riviera is a great, strategic hole. But there are good reasons to think that it doesn't play that way for pros. See my post above. There are many very good Golden Age holes that have suffered the same fate at the hands of the pros. How you get from there to the conclusion that I am "bashing" the 10th at Riv. escapes me.

This I have got to hear.   What are the good reasons that Riviera 10th does not play as great strategic hole for the Pros?    All you have offered thus far is your scoring spread theory.   So far as I can tell R10 is a wonderful strategic hole, especially for the pros.  That your theory cannot account for such a great hole suggests flaws in your theory, not to flaws with the golf hole.

In short, you seem to have lost sight of the possibility that your theory may not do very good job of identifying truly great strategic golf holes, especially when such holes lack extremely penal features such as water hazards.   But maybe I am wrong.  What, other than your scoring spread theory, justifies your conclusion that Riviera 10 is not a good strategic golf hole for the pros?

As for your analysis of the 17th at TPC Scottsdale, perhaps you might want to reread some of the previous posts. What you are describing is not what happened. The shot in question was not a drive, but a second shot chip after the golfer had hit three wood to even with the green off the tee. Many of the players did NOT risk the direct line off the tee but instead they hit drivers or three woods well right. leaving themselves very difficult chips.  It was the equivalent of them trying to do what Jim suggested  at Riviera 10.  They tried to be wishy-washy and not commit one way or another, hitting close to the green but not on it.

The difference between the holes is at Riviera the penalty for such a play is more subtle, whereas with this pin and conditions at Scottsdale the penalty was more blatant and severe.  But say that the 17th at TPC Scottsdale is more strategic for the pros?  Because they chipped into a lake?  Well that is too heavy handed for my tastes and ignores the subtle beauty and effectiveness of a truly great design like R10.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 05:45:34 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Matthew Petersen

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Re: "That's just silly" - 17 at TPC Scottsdale
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2012, 12:35:03 PM »
That's a wonderful hole, but not a very good pin position. I don't think it's unfair, but it frankly teeters on the edge of playability for the best players in the world ... they sure don't ever put the pin back there for the average shmoes playing the course today and for the next 360 days of the year.

That said, the hole still worked for those players on Saturday. Huh played a brave shot straight to the front of the green so he had straight-on chip at the hole, knocked it to 4 feet, and made birdie. IBF kept saying he didn't know how lucky he was to have stayed out of the water but it seemed a lot simpler to stay dry by being behind the hole rather than to the left of it. The key was having that straight-on shot at the hole rather than having to come back at it from the right after a drive that bailed away from the water. Levin also took a brave line and was rewarded.

 
So having said that, what makes it a bad pin position? You've just stated exactly what I've said as well...that the guys who conceived and executed properly were rewarded. Sounds good to me!


Well, first I think there's a difference between saying it's "not very good" and saying it's bad. It's not a bad pin position ... but I think every other pin position on the green is better.

You can go front left where you similarly bring the pond into play but leave plenty of room for players to bail out right, though they are still left with a difficult chip if they want to get close for a birdie putt. Front right is extremely difficult to chip to if your drive misses the green to the right. But if you find the left side of the green or even the left side of the fairway short of the green with a brave drive that challenged the water, then you have a reasonable uphill putt or chip for eagle. The little shelf on the back right of the green is also excellent as it's exacting with fall-offs all around, but perfectly reasonable given the length of the hole.

Compared to those other three options, the finger of the green back left where the hole was on Saturday is the least desirable.

Furthermore, while it is acceptable for the pros and brings some semblance of strategy into play, it's definitely imperfect. Some have suggested a player could lay well back and hit a full wedge shot in there, which is insane. As we saw, anything left of the hole was in the water so if you were playing a full shot in there then you have roughly ten paces to the right of the hole where you can land it--left is dead and long may be as well.

And even beyond all that is the simple fact that we're discussing all this in the context of the best players in the world. That pin position would be a joke for any players who aren't elite and that is reflected in that I have never seen it put back there for daily play.

jeffwarne

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Re: "That's just silly" - 17 at TPC Scottsdale
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2012, 05:17:12 PM »
That's a wonderful hole, but not a very good pin position. I don't think it's unfair, but it frankly teeters on the edge of playability for the best players in the world ... they sure don't ever put the pin back there for the average shmoes playing the course today and for the next 360 days of the year.

That said, the hole still worked for those players on Saturday. Huh played a brave shot straight to the front of the green so he had straight-on chip at the hole, knocked it to 4 feet, and made birdie. IBF kept saying he didn't know how lucky he was to have stayed out of the water but it seemed a lot simpler to stay dry by being behind the hole rather than to the left of it. The key was having that straight-on shot at the hole rather than having to come back at it from the right after a drive that bailed away from the water. Levin also took a brave line and was rewarded.

 
So having said that, what makes it a bad pin position? You've just stated exactly what I've said as well...that the guys who conceived and executed properly were rewarded. Sounds good to me!


Well, first I think there's a difference between saying it's "not very good" and saying it's bad. It's not a bad pin position ... but I think every other pin position on the green is better.


Furthermore, while it is acceptable for the pros and brings some semblance of strategy into play, it's definitely imperfect. Some have suggested a player could lay well back and hit a full wedge shot in there, which is insane. As we saw, anything left of the hole was in the water so if you were playing a full shot in there then you have roughly ten paces to the right of the hole where you can land it--left is dead and long may be as well.

.

Matt, You oviously know the hole better than most, but I must say....

It's "insane" for a pro to be challenged to hit a full wedge in a 10 pace WIDE area?
(That makes just about every shot at Augusta impossible then).

Three of the top 6 players on Saturday's leaderboard made 3.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "That's just silly" - 17 at TPC Scottsdale
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2012, 11:37:34 AM »
That's a wonderful hole, but not a very good pin position. I don't think it's unfair, but it frankly teeters on the edge of playability for the best players in the world ... they sure don't ever put the pin back there for the average shmoes playing the course today and for the next 360 days of the year.

That said, the hole still worked for those players on Saturday. Huh played a brave shot straight to the front of the green so he had straight-on chip at the hole, knocked it to 4 feet, and made birdie. IBF kept saying he didn't know how lucky he was to have stayed out of the water but it seemed a lot simpler to stay dry by being behind the hole rather than to the left of it. The key was having that straight-on shot at the hole rather than having to come back at it from the right after a drive that bailed away from the water. Levin also took a brave line and was rewarded.

 
So having said that, what makes it a bad pin position? You've just stated exactly what I've said as well...that the guys who conceived and executed properly were rewarded. Sounds good to me!


Well, first I think there's a difference between saying it's "not very good" and saying it's bad. It's not a bad pin position ... but I think every other pin position on the green is better.


Furthermore, while it is acceptable for the pros and brings some semblance of strategy into play, it's definitely imperfect. Some have suggested a player could lay well back and hit a full wedge shot in there, which is insane. As we saw, anything left of the hole was in the water so if you were playing a full shot in there then you have roughly ten paces to the right of the hole where you can land it--left is dead and long may be as well.

.

Matt, You oviously know the hole better than most, but I must say....

It's "insane" for a pro to be challenged to hit a full wedge in a 10 pace WIDE area?
(That makes just about every shot at Augusta impossible then).

Three of the top 6 players on Saturday's leaderboard made 3.



What makes it overly extreme is the punishment. It's fine to have tight areas. Hell the shelf on the back right of the green at TPC Scottsdale 17 is smaller than the area back left we're talking about ... but if you miss that you run off to a lower part of the green, or into a chipping area. On that back left finger of the green, anything left of the hole is in the water.

Again, I don't think it's terrible, but I think there's a reason why no one was laying back and hitting full wedges in there.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "That's just silly" - 17 at TPC Scottsdale New
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2012, 12:12:39 PM »
That's a wonderful hole, but not a very good pin position. I don't think it's unfair, but it frankly teeters on the edge of playability for the best players in the world ... they sure don't ever put the pin back there for the average shmoes playing the course today and for the next 360 days of the year.

That said, the hole still worked for those players on Saturday. Huh played a brave shot straight to the front of the green so he had straight-on chip at the hole, knocked it to 4 feet, and made birdie. IBF kept saying he didn't know how lucky he was to have stayed out of the water but it seemed a lot simpler to stay dry by being behind the hole rather than to the left of it. The key was having that straight-on shot at the hole rather than having to come back at it from the right after a drive that bailed away from the water. Levin also took a brave line and was rewarded.

 
So having said that, what makes it a bad pin position? You've just stated exactly what I've said as well...that the guys who conceived and executed properly were rewarded. Sounds good to me!


Well, first I think there's a difference between saying it's "not very good" and saying it's bad. It's not a bad pin position ... but I think every other pin position on the green is better.


Furthermore, while it is acceptable for the pros and brings some semblance of strategy into play, it's definitely imperfect. Some have suggested a player could lay well back and hit a full wedge shot in there, which is insane. As we saw, anything left of the hole was in the water so if you were playing a full shot in there then you have roughly ten paces to the right of the hole where you can land it--left is dead and long may be as well.

.

Matt, You obviously know the hole better than most, but I must say....

It's "insane" for a pro to be challenged to hit a full wedge in a 10 pace WIDE area?
(That makes just about every shot at Augusta impossible then).

Three of the top 6 players on Saturday's leaderboard made 3.



What makes it overly extreme is the punishment. It's fine to have tight areas. Hell the shelf on the back right of the green at TPC Scottsdale 17 is smaller than the area back left we're talking about ... but if you miss that you run off to a lower part of the green, or into a chipping area. On that back left finger of the green, anything left of the hole is in the water.

Again, I don't think it's terrible, but I think there's a reason why no one was laying back and hitting full wedges in there.

I think the reason is they just couldn't believe that there could be a shot that hard from the right side (listen to IBF-you'd think a crime was committed)
and some may have been truly committed to going for the green/bunker and simply hit it a bit right-I'd say most simply thought get it as close as possible without going in the water, and were stunned at the shot they had left.
the guys I saw who hit it into the water on their second shots made 5's after a drop by the green and simple chip.
and the guys who hit it in the bunker got up and down(for birdie or par)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 12:27:57 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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