[Jay Flemma]

I played Pine Barrens on Saturday for the first time in about 10 years.  It's been an eventful 10 years, marked by my pursuing a fairly intensive program of golf architecture study, research and writing.  I wanted to go back to World Woods because it is one of those places that I loved prior to developing a real interest in GCA, and because I had the chance to take a good friend.

First off, we spent Friday night at The Plantation, after getting a tip about it from a kitchen guy at The Hungry Fisherman, located just over the Withlacoochee River bridge on Route 44 in the middle of nowhere.  What a great tip!  Spent the evening in the bar and the sunrise hour exploring the grounds of the place.  http://www.plantationoncrystalriver.com/

Then on to Pine Barrens.  I won't bore with a long review, although I will say that in between PB visits, I have visited and played many of America's most notable courses.  Pine Barrens stands with any of them.  If you could see the ocean from there, it would be world top 10, IMO.  It's THAT good.  Minimalist Fazio (yes, an oxymoron that belong up there with jumbo shrimp and government intelligence).  Strategic choices abound.  The integration of the sandy barrens into the design at times sublime and other times striking.  The internal countours of the greens and their surrounds are among the best I've ever seen.  I played the same ball all the way around.  Playability is a 10, with interest provided by a number of natural elements including woods, sand, fallaway shoulders with closely mown chipping areas and all kinds of options. 

The biggest change I noticed was on the short-4 15th, where trees used to obscure the landing area over the quarry and to the right of the green.  They have totally opened it up, and it now invites the player visually to give it a go - although the risk is significant.

World Woods Pine Barrens belongs in the very top tier discussion on American golf architecture.  They would kill in merchandising if they had a decent logo.  I HATE the World Woods name.  Sounds cheesy and ridiculous, but Pine Barrens is everything golf can and should be.  100% a FAN!

I love World Wood and I love the Plantation Inn.  Soaked my sore shoulder many a night in that jacuzzi!  36 during the day, jacuzzi, dinner jacuzzi round two, sleep.  Lather rinse repeat!

[Adam Clayman]

 The last time I was there the greens at PB were so shaggy they probably putted at about a 6.

David, Unless there was a reason for the HOC, the conditions at WW have been much improved since they hired one super to oversee both courses. I think he;s been there about 5 years. When was the last time you were there.

A friend plays there frequently, he's a turf guy, gcssaa member, and he reports the conditions are excellent.

[Anders Rytter]

I think i will have to atleast spend a few days in Miami, any good golf advices in the area? I think i've heard that one should choose carefully there if at all.

[Dub_ONeill]

WW has to be one of the best quality for value winter getaways easily accesible from the eastern U.S..  A foursome just spent 3 days two nights in one of the WW condos with five rounds of golf plus the short course, rental car, food and drink for about $575 per person. 

[Mark Saltzman]

I think i will have to atleast spend a few days in Miami, any good golf advices in the area? I think i've heard that one should choose carefully there if at all.

The better golf is closer to West Palm / Jupiter / Vero Beach so it depends how far you're willing to drive.

Public or private?

I played Crandon near Miami last week. Worth a play but a bit pricey. My review: http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2012/01/crandon-golf-course-review.html

Also definitely worth playing is Donald Ross' Biltmore about 20 minutes from Miami. Some good deals to be had on Golfnow, too. My review: http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2011/12/biltmore-resort.html

[Anders Rytter]

I think i will have to atleast spend a few days in Miami, any good golf advices in the area? I think i've heard that one should choose carefully there if at all.

The better golf is closer to West Palm / Jupiter / Vero Beach so it depends how far you're willing to drive.

Public or private?

I played Crandon near Miami last week. Worth a play but a bit pricey. My review: http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2012/01/crandon-golf-course-review.html

Also definitely worth playing is Donald Ross' Biltmore about 20 minutes from Miami. Some good deals to be had on Golfnow, too. My review: http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2011/12/biltmore-resort.html

Hi Mark,
guess i'm settling with public. From Europe and know nobody in Miami.

Thanks for the advices, Crandon and Biltmore looks like something to keep on the shortlist.

We'll be willig to drive some if it's worth it

[Bill_McBride]

I think i will have to atleast spend a few days in Miami, any good golf advices in the area? I think i've heard that one should choose carefully there if at all.

The better golf is closer to West Palm / Jupiter / Vero Beach so it depends how far you're willing to drive.

Public or private?

I played Crandon near Miami last week. Worth a play but a bit pricey. My review: http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2012/01/crandon-golf-course-review.html

Also definitely worth playing is Donald Ross' Biltmore about 20 minutes from Miami. Some good deals to be had on Golfnow, too. My review: http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2011/12/biltmore-resort.html

Mark, Biltmore is better than Crandon Park?   Used to be Key Biscayne, right?    That is a good course.   Ive heard Biltmore is a short, flat, palm-lined course.   Crandon is anything but!

[jeffwarne]

I think i will have to atleast spend a few days in Miami, any good golf advices in the area? I think i've heard that one should choose carefully there if at all.

The better golf is closer to West Palm / Jupiter / Vero Beach so it depends how far you're willing to drive.

Public or private?

I played Crandon near Miami last week. Worth a play but a bit pricey. My review: http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2012/01/crandon-golf-course-review.html

Also definitely worth playing is Donald Ross' Biltmore about 20 minutes from Miami. Some good deals to be had on Golfnow, too. My review: http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2011/12/biltmore-resort.html

Mark, Biltmore is better than Crandon Park?   Used to be Key Biscayne, right?    That is a good course.   Ive heard Biltmore is a short, flat, palm-lined course.   Crandon is anything but!

haven't played Biltmore since the redo, but I always enjoyed it more than crandon.
Always found Crandon awkward and the Biltmore subtly charming-my guess is the Biltmore may be a bit too ritzy for me now-same with all the other Miami public redos downtown

[Mark Saltzman]

Bill,

I certainly preferred Biltmore to Crandon.  Biltmore is very much strategic golf, with excellent bunker placement.  Certainly not the strongest set of Ross greens I have seen, but far better than typical FL golf.  In all but a couple spots (where it's really bad), mowing lines are great, rewarding aggressive tee shots.

Short, flat and palm-lined? Short, yes (under 7K from the tips), but Biltmore is all about angles.  Many holes have you hitting less than driver off the tee unless you want to challenge bunkering and/or shape your tee shot.  Flat? Yes, as is most Florida golf, Crandon included.  Palm-lined? Nope.  I don't know if there was a lot of tree removal in the Silva restoration or your source is just wrong, but Biltmore has a very open feeling.  Trees are used sparingly (holes 1, 5, 9 10, 14 and 18) and in almost all cases (not 18) are used to add strategic interest.

Crandon is fine.  Perhaps the $180 green fee is impacting my opinion of the golf course.  Some really interesting tournament greens, notably the 11th which is one of the most unique I've ever seen.  Par 3s are definitely the strength of the course. Too many doglegs that look and play exactly the same and the mounding around every green could use a bulldoze.  Also, the fact that the course is walkable but they won't let you walk (especially since it's a muni) really bothers me.

[Anders Rytter]

Bill,

I certainly preferred Biltmore to Crandon.  Biltmore is very much strategic golf, with excellent bunker placement.  Certainly not the strongest set of Ross greens I have seen, but far better than typical FL golf.  In all but a couple spots (where it's really bad), mowing lines are great, rewarding aggressive tee shots.

Short, flat and palm-lined? Short, yes (under 7K from the tips), but Biltmore is all about angles.  Many holes have you hitting less than driver off the tee unless you want to challenge bunkering and/or shape your tee shot.  Flat? Yes, as is most Florida golf, Crandon included.  Palm-lined? Nope.  I don't know if there was a lot of tree removal in the Silva restoration or your source is just wrong, but Biltmore has a very open feeling.  Trees are used sparingly (holes 1, 5, 9 10, 14 and 18) and in almost all cases (not 18) are used to add strategic interest.

Crandon is fine.  Perhaps the $180 green fee is impacting my opinion of the golf course.  Some really interesting tournament greens, notably the 11th which is one of the most unique I've ever seen.  Par 3s are definitely the strength of the course. Too many doglegs that look and play exactly the same and the mounding around every green could use a bulldoze.  Also, the fact that the course is walkable but they won't let you walk (especially since it's a muni) really bothers me.

Hi,  if we are willing to drive further away, what other option do we have? Any of the Doral courses worth playing?

[Rick Phelps]

Kyle and David,
Enjoyed your comments about the practice facilities at WW -- one of the best I have ever seen.  The story behind it is interesting, as well.  The owner/money behind the project was a successful Japanese golf course developer and businessman.  His concept for World Woods was that it would be a top 10 golf resort first and foremost, but that it would also serve as a "training ground" for young Japanese professionals (potential tour players and teaching pros).  His thought was to provide them with top-notch training facilities, dormitory-style housing and an intensive training program.  The "pro forma" called for 20-40 young pros to be on property at all times.

Clearly, the Fazio staff did a great job creating what is likely the most complete practice facility of any golf resort.  Too bad the Japanese economy went into the tank about a year or two after the place opened!!

Have any of you played Southern Woods?  It's the "ugly" step-child of the WW properties.  I can say that because I helped design it! 

In order to purchase the property for WW, the Japanese investor was required to finance the construction of Southern Woods.  Unfortunately, the people in charge of negotiating the financing did't do much homework.  As such, were given the same amount of money to build 18-holes as they spent to build 2 holes at WW.  Sour grapes!

I haven't been down there in about 10 years, but would be curious to hear if anyone has played it.  It's a fairly straightforward, member course.  Designed to be fun, but very playable for the mostly retired membership.

Rick

[Mark Saltzman]

Hi,  if we are willing to drive further away, what other option do we have? Any of the Doral courses worth playing?

As an international, I suspect you would have some success with access to some private courses in the area, if you wanted to go that route.  Many clubs are somewhat restricted with outside play as this is their busy season, but a few to consider that may be a bit more welcoming:

http://www.rivieracountryclub.org/ - a Ross that is reasonably close.  No personal experience but I have heard good things.

http://www.coralridgecc.com/ - RTJ Sr's home course.  Really interesting set of greens.

http://www.delraydunes.org/ - A very early Pete Dye.  Worth seeing for any architecture junkie


I cannot, in good conscience, recommend the Doral courses.  Always fun to play a course you see on TV, but at the price they charge I cannot justify recommending it.

Other options:

http://www.golfjacaranda.com/ West - DO NOT PLAY THE EAST - Was a boring RTJ Sr. design, but the Bobby Weed renovation has made it a very enjoyable golf course.

I have heard good things about http://www.golfcolonywest.com/.  Ditto http://www.hillcrestgcc.com/index.php

A bit farther away I really enjoyed:

West Palm Beach GC: http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2012/01/west-palm-beach-golf-club-review.html -- At $24 on EZLinks.com it is one of the best values anywhere.  Recent restoration has made it very interesting.

http://www.presidentcc.com/ is a recently renovated RTJ Jr. course that has a great set of greens.

http://npbcc.org/ renovated by Nicklaus 5 years ago.  Hillier terrain than most FL golf.  Extreme greens -- love it or hate it kind of thing.

http://madisongreengolf.com/ - A CCFAD.  Better than average but not great.

[Anders Rytter]

Hi,  if we are willing to drive further away, what other option do we have? Any of the Doral courses worth playing?

As an international, I suspect you would have some success with access to some private courses in the area, if you wanted to go that route.  Many clubs are somewhat restricted with outside play as this is their busy season, but a few to consider that may be a bit more welcoming:

http://www.rivieracountryclub.org/ - a Ross that is reasonably close.  No personal experience but I have heard good things.

http://www.coralridgecc.com/ - RTJ Sr's home course.  Really interesting set of greens.

http://www.delraydunes.org/ - A very early Pete Dye.  Worth seeing for any architecture junkie


I cannot, in good conscience, recommend the Doral courses.  Always fun to play a course you see on TV, but at the price they charge I cannot justify recommending it.

Other options:

http://www.golfjacaranda.com/ West - DO NOT PLAY THE EAST - Was a boring RTJ Sr. design, but the Bobby Weed renovation has made it a very enjoyable golf course.

I have heard good things about http://www.golfcolonywest.com/.  Ditto http://www.hillcrestgcc.com/index.php

A bit farther away I really enjoyed:

West Palm Beach GC: http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2012/01/west-palm-beach-golf-club-review.html -- At $24 on EZLinks.com it is one of the best values anywhere.  Recent restoration has made it very interesting.

http://www.presidentcc.com/ is a recently renovated RTJ Jr. course that has a great set of greens.

http://npbcc.org/ renovated by Nicklaus 5 years ago.  Hillier terrain than most FL golf.  Extreme greens -- love it or hate it kind of thing.

http://madisongreengolf.com/ - A CCFAD.  Better than average but not great.

This is very helpful! Thanks!

[Howard Riefs]

I've heard positive feedback on Plantation Preserve, which was formerly known as Plantation Golf Club.  It was completely redone by von Hagge in 2006. I haven't seen the new course, last playing its predecessor since the 80s.

http://www.plantation.org/golf/Plantation-Preserve/index.html

Other options:

http://www.golfjacaranda.com/ West - DO NOT PLAY THE EAST - Was a boring RTJ Sr. design, but the Bobby Weed renovation has made it a very enjoyable golf course.

Sorry for the hijack...

Mark,

I grew up in Plantation and played Jacaranda on a regular occasion. We played the west course more often, which at the time was a more manageable, shorter test.  I haven't played either course in about 15 years.  I'd welcome any detailed thoughts on both courses and how they played for you.

I heard they finally cut the meddlesome palm tree that sat in the middle of #9 fairway on the east course. I hated that tree.  

[Wade Whitehead]

One thing to add about Pine Barrens: Rakes are put on the golf carts and aren't found around bunkers.  This means two things: (1) At least once during the round a player ends up playing from a bunker and doesn't have a rake (because it's on the cart and he didn't bring) and (2) A player leaves his rake next to the bunker (as he would normally do) and doesn't realize it until he needs the rake again (often much later in the round).  Every time I have played Pine Barrens at least one cart in my group has ended up with no rake (with none next to the bunkers either).

WW

[Criss Titschinger]

I've been to World Woods twice: 2004 and 2011. While the long iron range was maintained, I've never seen it open for hitting.

Conditions for Pine Barrens on both of my visits were very good. In 2011, I was staying in Indian Shores and it took all of 1hr 40min to get there. Had bugs so bad on the way back that I almost had to pull over.

I know they still have the short course (executive like 9 holer), but I think the practice par 3/4/5 holes are gone. Played Rolling Oaks in 2004, but didn't make it in 2011.

One thing I would not recommend for Pine Barrens is walking the course. I gave it the old college try in 2011, and between the distance between holes and the suffocating humidity (see below shot from first tee), I was done by hole 7. Thankfully, someone in a cart behind me caught up to me, and we shared a cart for the rest of the round.



I wanted to check out the Dunes Club while I was there, but I ended up badly straining my wrist on an approach shot on 18 at Pine Barrens and had to cancel the rest of my golfing plans that trip. Maybe next time.

[Joe Bausch]

I'll be in the TPA area in early March playing at WW and Lake Jovita.  There is room in my merry group of 'Nova golfers for a GCAer.  PM me if interested.

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