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Tony Ristola

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Overwatering and overfertilizing
« on: February 03, 2012, 05:44:25 AM »
What is the percentage of clubs you play that you feel have over-watered and over-fertilized in the pursuit of the color green?

Not needed, but an interesting aside would be the region/state/province/country would this be?

Dave Givnish

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Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2012, 08:28:01 AM »
Most of the over-seeded courses in Arizona...

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 08:29:48 AM »
Tony,

Frankly, not many I remember!  Here in TX, water is getting to be both a precious commodity via nature (bad drought last year) and regulation (state "owns" surface water and will take over wells within a few years).  Most courses told to cut back watering.  None that I know of waters more than what they lose in ET, many water less, and many are beginning to believe the true water need of a course is about half or less of pan evaporation (soil moisture sensors are telling us this)

As to fertilizers, I went to my local supers meeting yesterday for some edumacation on weed control and fate of pesticides, but a small sub discussion broke out.  In general, they used to think they needed a pound of N a month, now it seems most use half a pound N, and some even cut that off after July.

For the most part, I think the "overwater to create lush green" is a bit of a myth, at least from my experience, although I do agree than an inexperienced super in a tough year is probably more prone to dial up the water 10% as a cure against what might ail them.  Actually, it leads to more problems.

I can recall a few courses a decade ago where the super really didn't know how to run his new computerized irrigation controls, but didn't want to ask anyone for fear of looking dumb.  One left his controls in the settings we put in during grow in (about twice the normal amount of water) and that was very noticeable, and golfers complained.

I guess you would have to define overwatering for me.  As I said, most US supers are now familiar with what their ET loss is, and water only to that.  I actually argue that watering to full ET is overwatering.  

In the old days, you watered when the grass got crunchy, meaning about every other day or less watering.  Now they feel like you have to keep the tea glass full all the time.  But, turf survives on as little as 33% of full moisture capacity, and soil moisture sensors 6" below the surface suggest (as I would expect) that the soil holds much more moisture than air.  When ET shows 0.25" loss on a hot night, the soil sensors say soil is depleted maybe a third or less of that. This suggests watering well less than ET will yield just as good a result..

In reality, most courses don't have irrigation systems capabel of full ET replacment, and this happens naturally!  In the near future, I expect data from soil moisture sensors to start a move to reduce watering to less than ET.

Dave,

The new USGA turf newsletter talks about how overseeding, even of greens, is going the way of the dodo bird (my words, not theirs!)  Overseeding for color sure is a waste of water and often causes transition problems in two peak times for play - spring and fall.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 09:37:33 AM »
Tony  -  Interesting question and I will be interested to see the resposes.  I'm a Supt. in the Phila, PA area and I would offer the following.  In my opinion the single greatest development in golf course maintenace in the last 20 years is the development and increasing use of Plant Growth Regulators (PGR's).  PGR's have improved the playing surface in many ways for golfers with the biggest being a tighter more dense turf stand without the use of additional fertilizer.  PGR's slow the plant cell elongation, while cell division and root growth is unchecked.  The resulting turf is healthier with less inputs.  The plants does not use up it's energy pushing out top growth.  Instead carbohydrates are reserved and the plant is hardened off and better prepared to deal with greater traffic and environmental stress.  All of these factors allow the Superintendent to grow and prepare our artificial surfaces with less water and fertilizer.  We are able to focus more on gromming and smoothness.   All of that said I am not an expert on other parts of the country and the conditions they are dealing with so I will watch for other posts.  Thanks - Sean

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 09:47:04 AM »
Tony  -  Interesting question and I will be interested to see the resposes.  I'm a Supt. in the Phila, PA area and I would offer the following.  In my opinion the single greatest development in golf course maintenace in the last 20 years is the development and increasing use of Plant Growth Regulators (PGR's).  PGR's have improved the playing surface in many ways for golfers with the biggest being a tighter more dense turf stand without the use of additional fertilizer.  PGR's slow the plant cell elongation, while cell division and root growth is unchecked.  The resulting turf is healthier with less inputs.  The plants does not use up it's energy pushing out top growth.  Instead carbohydrates are reserved and the plant is hardened off and better prepared to deal with greater traffic and environmental stress.  All of these factors allow the Superintendent to grow and prepare our artificial surfaces with less water and fertilizer.  We are able to focus more on gromming and smoothness.   All of that said I am not an expert on other parts of the country and the conditions they are dealing with so I will watch for other posts.  Thanks - Sean

Have you been reading about the use of Primo adding to the spread of Bacteria Wilt?
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 11:43:07 AM »
What is the percentage of clubs you play that you feel have over-watered and over-fertilized in the pursuit of the color green?

Not needed, but an interesting aside would be the region/state/province/country would this be?

To be fair I think a lot of this depends on someones opinion and what someone feels is green and soft might not be to another.....

A lot of the green and lush happen in the 80s and 90s (Augusta syndrome??) but over the last 15+ years there definitely is a move toward less inputs as has been described above. I'd have to say in central PA most if not all clubs use the minimum water and fertility they need, the playability factor is important but these days the bottom line is very important too so I think it has accelerated the move with golfers (at least the educated ones) - while still wanting perfect conditions - being a little more lenient and appreciating the benefits of a 'faster' course.

The one thing over the years I've noticed too is that golfers expect things to be the same everywhere and don't consider fertility timings, precipitation etc, so just because a course is a certain way on the day you visit that doesn't mean it's like that all the time, then again if it's a course you play regularly then.... I'm just saying it's hard to compare unless you see them regularly
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 08:37:19 AM »
Tony -  I am not completely up to speed on the topic of PGR's causing or having any relation to bacterial wilt.  On of the porblems with making this conection is the diverse usage of the PGR's.  Seems that almost everyone has a different program.  I need to to look around for some research.  If you know of any please lead me to it.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 08:49:01 AM »
What is the percentage of clubs you play that you feel have over-watered and over-fertilized in the pursuit of the color green?

Not needed, but an interesting aside would be the region/state/province/country would this be?

To be fair I think a lot of this depends on someones opinion and what someone feels is green and soft might not be to another.....

A lot of the green and lush happen in the 80s and 90s (Augusta syndrome??) but over the last 15+ years there definitely is a move toward less inputs as has been described above. I'd have to say in central PA most if not all clubs use the minimum water and fertility they need, the playability factor is important but these days the bottom line is very important too so I think it has accelerated the move with golfers (at least the educated ones) - while still wanting perfect conditions - being a little more lenient and appreciating the benefits of a 'faster' course.

The one thing over the years I've noticed too is that golfers expect things to be the same everywhere and don't consider fertility timings, precipitation etc, so just because a course is a certain way on the day you visit that doesn't mean it's like that all the time, then again if it's a course you play regularly then.... I'm just saying it's hard to compare unless you see them regularly


Alan

I think you are right.  These days, much of the time one comes across an over-water issue it is down to insufficient drainage, just too much rain too quickly or the safety buffer (for lack of a better term).  The only time in my recentish visits to the US where I found a course to be inexplicably wet was Tobacco Road.  A few other times it was poor drainage (Mid Pines) or a lot of rain (Governors Club).  Otherwise, most courses have usually been alright without being exceptional; Merion and Yeamans were the two exceptionals.  

Supers, how much of a safety buffer to you build in with water?  Am I right in thinking you lot don't run as lean and mean as possible just in case shit happens? If so, what percentage of water use is that buffer?

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 09:19:08 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 02:16:57 PM »
All the golfers who know enough to frequent this site and understand the principles discussed here obviously "get it".  However most of us Supers out there work for people who want their courses to look like Augusta and all the other televised tracks.  Often times what is right agronomically and what allows you to keep your job are two different things.  If the TV was selling "firm and fast" then more memberships would call for that and I believe that would usher in an era of less overwatering and overfertilization.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 02:45:05 PM »
All the golfers who know enough to frequent this site and understand the principles discussed here obviously "get it".  However most of us Supers out there work for people who want their courses to look like Augusta and all the other televised tracks.  Often times what is right agronomically and what allows you to keep your job are two different things.  If the TV was selling "firm and fast" then more memberships would call for that and I believe that would usher in an era of less overwatering and overfertilization.

I'm going to buck a GCA.com trend here and challenge the common knowledge that Augusta is the bane of agronomy for all lesser courses in the US.  In fact, I'm very interested to find out how those greens get harder than Washington Road with all the water they put on them. 

Augusta National isn't the issue, it's people thinking that they need to be Augusta that's the issue.  I look forward to studying more.

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 04:33:08 PM »
Ben, the use of the Sub-air system is what allows elite clubs like ANGC to pound their greens with water and still be firm at the right moment.
Essentially the green profile can be allowed to be soaking wet, bone dry or anywhere in between.  Plus with rebuilt greens that are USGA spec.
the turf can be very lush and still be firm and true, that is why the USGA green is the standard today.

Matt Day

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2012, 06:32:04 PM »
Aussie supers tend to keep them as lean as possible in regards to nutient and water.

We do a lot of fairway foliar applications of iron/manganese  which keeps the colour up without the growth (high pH) soils. Also use a lot of primo to keep the kikuyu under control.

Also have lysimeters at selected points around the course to measure nutrient leaching through the profile and do regular soil and leaf testing to see where nutrient levels are at.

In regards to watering we are growing bent greens in a climate with hot, dry and windy summers and at selected times we are watering at 110-120% of ET to keep them alive.

Fairways and tees would be on around 70% ET as a general rule of thumb. Wetting agents are applied on a fortnightly basis through the irrigation system to prevent the soil profile from becoming hydrophobic.

This is on a pure sand profile for all areas with temperatures for example last week which were over 40 degrees celsius for four days straight.

Bruce Leland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2012, 10:14:14 PM »
I think over watering and over fertilizing in pursuit of that kelly green look are exceptionally good ideas.
Poster of the year thus far, IMHO. Classic
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Mark Johnson

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Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2012, 10:30:38 PM »
What is the percentage of clubs you play that you feel have over-watered and over-fertilized in the pursuit of the color green?

Not needed, but an interesting aside would be the region/state/province/country would this be?

In Minnesota, about 99% of high-end public courses, about 80% of private clubs and maybe 40% of munis.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 04:51:54 AM »
What is the percentage of clubs you play that you feel have over-watered and over-fertilized in the pursuit of the color green?

Not needed, but an interesting aside would be the region/state/province/country would this be?

Tony,

In the Met NY area it's difficult to find a course that DOESN'T over water.

It appears systemic to me.

Not because the Supers want to, but because the members pretty much demand it.

I can't remember the last time I came across greenish-yellowish-brownish fairways, and i have a pretty good memory.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 08:53:22 AM »
Couple of thoughts.  First, while I have seen overwatering, over fertilizing probably just isn't done - expensive, makes them have to mow that much more, etc.  Even the overwatering would require a definition to me.  The only factual statement or question was from Sean, with an appropriate answer from Matt regarding Australia.

But, most supers in the US use ET and foliar tissue testing to get an idea of how much N-P-K is required.  As I mentioned in another post, "typical" fertilzer rates have dropped among supers I ask from 1 lb N per month to 1/2 lb, with a drop off in later summer for a lower average rate.

All that said, if this group is so sure that so many courses over water, why not name names and call them out?  Let them respond, and if necessary change their ways?

Maybe Ron Whitten (or Brad, or Geoff) ought to start a list or rankings of "America's most over watered" to call attention to this "systemic" problem?  Pretty sure some courses would react positively to being on such a negative list, no?  Of course, others might just file a lawsuit against the writer so it will probably never happen.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2012, 04:31:17 PM »
Matt,

I didn't catch a lot of the President's Cup, and they obviously tuned the course for the event, but to me it looked awful. It's been a while, my memory may not be spot on, but the impression I got was a course that had a couple shades of vibrant green. 

I haven't been to Australia, but have always admired the mixture of browns and greens presented in the course photos.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2012, 04:48:01 PM »
What is the percentage of clubs you play that you feel have over-watered and over-fertilized in the pursuit of the color green?

Not needed, but an interesting aside would be the region/state/province/country would this be?

In Minnesota, about 99% of high-end public courses, about 80% of private clubs and maybe 40% of munis.

In my experience, private Minnesota courses have become very firm over the last five years with the exception of the month of July when a lot of water is needed to keep the old poa greens alive. Increased green rolling and the use of growth regulators have changed things pretty dramatically. 

I am not sure whether or not firm courses involve less maintenence.  I get the feeling that it is often more expensive to maintain a course in that manner.

Matt Day

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Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2012, 07:08:39 PM »
Matt,

I didn't catch a lot of the President's Cup, and they obviously tuned the course for the event, but to me it looked awful. It's been a while, my memory may not be spot on, but the impression I got was a course that had a couple shades of vibrant green. 

I haven't been to Australia, but have always admired the mixture of browns and greens presented in the course photos.
Tony
I'm no expert on Melbourne courses as I'm in Perth (in fact i'm no expert full stop  :)), but there was an article in the latest Australian Turfgrass Journal where Richard Forsyth explains an issue he had with the greens.

He had brushed the greens a week before the tournament and due to the lean nutrition programme and inidividual characteristics of the Suttons Mix, the greens went backwards a bit. He then applied a mix of iron/manganese and magnesium to hide some of the blemishes, and thats what made them look really dark. They would have been black on the Monday and lightened slightly as the week went on. 

I did go on the last day and at ground level the course looked really nicely presented.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 08:17:23 PM »
A lot of the responses here are about the wrong thing -- you're talking about appearances, instead of talking about whether the course really presents excellent playing surfaces.  It's really all about firm and fast [and affordable], not about brown or green. 

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2012, 04:00:25 AM »
A lot of the responses here are about the wrong thing -- you're talking about appearances, instead of talking about whether the course really presents excellent playing surfaces.  It's really all about firm and fast [and affordable], not about brown or green. 

Tom,

it always stuns how many people put appearances ahead of playing surface quality. I have always advised clubs that the main responsibility for the greenkeeping is to present the best playing surfaces possible and the course set so as to make playing as interesting as possible.

Most however equate this to green and stripey. :'(

Jon

Matthew Essig

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Re: Overwatering and overfertilizing
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2012, 10:49:58 PM »
I enjoy a course that is firm and fast... Especially when it is designed for firm and fast  ;D

I can't stand overwatered courses!!!!!  >:(

Not too crazy about over fertilized but i still frown upon it  :(
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett