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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
where is this?
« on: December 18, 2001, 05:27:23 PM »


Bobby Jones said about the builder: "he is one of the few really competent architects around".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: where is this?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2001, 06:06:59 PM »
Well, I'll be damned, I have no idea who that builder is who deserved that praise from Bobby Jones or where that is. I'm going to leave myself open to potential criticism anyway by saying that bunkering is not really even close to the best I've seen from some of the "Golden Age" architects or from some of the architects today (ie, C&C, Hanse/Kittleman and Doak)!

It looks a great deal like some of the recent bunkering I've seen at Merion from MacDonald & Co and some other modern bunkering  which is just OK but not near the best of the best. It's not doing a great job of being natural and random looking although it's clearly trying to go in that direction compared to the round, smooth, boringly man-made lines of some of the other work of past and present!

So I'll be very interested to know who the builder is and where that is and I fully expect if it's someone otherwise well respected on here to have Pat Mucci come on here and tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about in architecture!

Again, I have no idea where that is or who it is but why not hazard a guess? I'll say early RTJ.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: where is this?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2001, 06:44:51 PM »
I think TE may have the man, it looks to be a 50's vintage photograph which would bring RTJ or Wilson to mind. But I'll take a wild guess and say Strong - although I wouldn't have know when Jones would've had occasion to mention him.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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George Bahto

Re: where is this?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2001, 07:02:56 PM »
come on Jimmy - that photo got wet and warped the paper - 'fess up!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Mingay

Re: where is this?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2001, 07:02:57 PM »
I had a look at this photo before there was a reply and hesitated to post that I suspected it was either early Trent Jones or Dick Wilson. (Please don' tell me it was Thompson?!)

Whoever designed and/or constructed this particular bunker, I will agree with Messrs. Paul and MacWood that it's far from ideal.

As much as I respect the great Bobby Jones and his (early) thoughts on golf course architecture, I've always been suspicious of the man who "ok'd" the design of the existing 16th hole at Augusta National.

I know, the 16th provides great drama each and every final round of The Masters; still, it's not an ideal hole -- that is, in my humble opinion  ;D

With all due respect,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: where is this?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2001, 07:09:27 PM »
Jim Kennedy,

This picture is of the 8th hole at the Elmendorf Air Force base golf course, just outside of Juneau, Alaska.  The picture was taken on July 6, 1951, at 1:40 am, just after the leaves came off the trees in Juneau.  (it's a short golf season, but stays light all day)   :)

I would  tend to agree with Tom MacWood, and GUESS that the fingers look like something Wilson might do, but it's just a guess.

TEPaul,

Why mention my name ?   :)

Why the defensive hostility ?   :) :)

Have you no confidence in you're posts ?   :) :) :)

What did Bobby Jones know about golf  ?   :) :) :) :)

What did Bobby Jones know about golf course architects ?   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: where is this?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2001, 07:12:58 PM »
To the "Marble King" ;D  (aka George Bahto)
The only thing wet and warped around the edges is you after being out in the rain at Essex.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Cirba

Re: where is this?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2001, 07:56:26 PM »
Great picture and great question.

Although the work looks as though it could be either Jones, Thompson, or Wilson, I'll go out on a limb here and guess Edward Lawrence Packard, or perhaps Joe Lee.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: where is this?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2001, 08:21:25 PM »
My guess is that it is a lot earlier than the 50s by the looks of the photo and the scruffy condition of the turf leading up to the green from the front. (although it is late autumn and they may have stopped mowing)  And, the green has a great deal of swale and contouring from looking around the shoes and pants of the guy tending the pin and what you can see of the green skyline.  The mound in the back looks more like a pile than a modern blended mound.  But the shaping of that bunker looks like something right off of a modern block insert CAD program.  I'll give it high marks for an pre-modern, artsy fartsy bunkering presentation. And, it isn't Ed Lawrence Packard or anything that devolves out of the RB Harris school, I'd bet, because they did open gapping bunkering without all the squiggly lines.  Whether the archie was competent... we'll just have to take Bobby's word for it!  ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

Re: where is this?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2001, 08:35:36 PM »
Pat:

Why mention your name? These days I rarely ever try to make a post without mentioning your name.

Why the defensive hostility? Saying you question my understanding of architecture is defensive hostility? Hmmm! Maybe I should question your remarks about my eyesight and reading comprehension instead.

Have I no confidence in my posts? I have quite a bit of confidence in my posts but not quite as much confidence in your responses to them.

What did Bobby Jones know about golf architects? I'm sure a good deal.

What did Bobby Jones know about golf? Is this some sort of trick question or have you lost your train of thought again?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ian andrew (Guest)

Re: where is this?
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2001, 09:09:54 PM »
I'm dying to know. Early Muirhead?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: where is this?
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2001, 09:46:50 PM »
Whoever built those 3-4 capes and bays could not have done them more symetrically and perfectly and that might have been considered a good thing at that time!

Super bonus points for anyone who can not only identify the builder and where and what the course is but also that golfer in the bunker. That guy has about a picture perfect swing in that particular photo!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: where is this?
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2001, 09:47:00 PM »
A couple of hints:
This architect has a course on the top 100 classical list but it's not the one pictured. He shares the spot with his former partner.

He built another course next door to the one in the photo although I think this is the stronger of the two.


If that doesn't do it I'll come clean after I return tomorrow evening from picking up the younger of my mutts ;D at college.  

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: where is this?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2001, 01:34:25 AM »
My three guesses are:

Nicklaus
or
Dye
or
Muirhead...but then again are any of their courses classical... ;D


I don't think that Bobby Jones knew anything about architecture he just got lucky with the ground and the architect ;D

Anyway from what I have been reading in RTJ's book you can't call Augusta a MacKenzie course anymore.  Call it a RTJ, Nicklaus, Fazio and Roberts design....if you wnat..

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: where is this?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2001, 03:47:50 AM »
William Gordon?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: where is this?
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2001, 06:28:49 AM »
I've not seen his work, but I'm going to guess Red Lawrence
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: where is this?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2001, 09:24:37 AM »
I have no idea but I'll say Joe Lee. I don't really know much about Lee except he sure was popular in Fla after Wilson with my Dad and his buddies and I just looked him up in C&W and was amazed how many courses he did. That photo looks like the beginnings of the "Modern Era" to me. What's the cut-off year for a course to be considered in the classic category?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: where is this?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2001, 02:29:17 PM »
Gentlemen,
The course is Split Rock and its sister course is Pelham. They are part of Pelham Bay Park in NYC. The architect is John Van Kleek. It was built using WPA monies in the '30s. I haven't been down to Split Rock in many years but I remember the last 3 or 4 holes as being hard but good.

Here is a photo of one of the greens.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: where is this?
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2001, 06:05:36 PM »
Jim,

You faked us out of our soft spikes !    :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: where is this?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2001, 06:09:20 PM »
I completely endorse Mr Mucci's remark and agree that was a true fake-out. I only missed the architect and era by about three decades!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: where is this?
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2001, 06:43:51 PM »
WOW, JIM!!

Either the Van Kleek courses I've played have lost ALL of their bunker shaping over the years, or I just didn't expect him to design something so fanciful.  I've played 8 courses where he was the principal architect for what is there now, and another that I suspect Wayne Stiles did most of.

Inevitably, the Van Kleek bunkers that exist today (at Split Rock and others) are almost inevitably just round or otherwise shapeless.  I'm truly stunned.

I'd always thought that he was just another Golden Ager like Alex Findlay who designed a bunch of courses that laid well on the land, but who generally eschewed eye-popping visual features.

Are we sure he wasn't Joe Lee or Rees's great uncle?  Just half-kiddin'!   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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GeoffreyC

Re: where is this?
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2001, 07:49:56 PM »
Yikes! I didn't have a clue.

The first photo has a greensite like those I know.  The green on the second photo is not one I recognize off hand.  I think its the  1st or 10th both of which have a lot of tilt from back to front but are otherwise pretty simple.  Most others are much wilder as shown in the first photo.

Any chance you have any more of these?  Where by chance did you find these gems?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: where is this?
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2001, 08:06:44 PM »
Well MikeC, I'm not half kidding! When Rees was about twenty minutes old and at Uncle Van kleek's knee he was taught well the art of perfectly symmetrical bunker fingers and caps and bays. And Chip MacDonald's grandmother was Rees's wet nurse when he was peeing at Van Kleek's knee. How do you do those smileys?

Rees is a changed man now though and MacDonald has at least one shaper who is headed in the right direction!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: where is this?
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2001, 09:47:59 PM »
Mike,
A photo like this shows the real value of research when trying to identify an architect's style. Who knows how many other bunkers were built by him in this fashion and changed by others down the road. I play Taconic a couple of times a season and I never saw anything up there shaped like the bunker in the photo. Perhaps he was trying to add a flourish to a municipal course during an otherwise depressing time?

Geoff,
These photos came from a new deal website. I don't have the address but searching "new deal" might bring it up.

Pat and Mike, er,I mean Pat and Tom,
Do either of you think the slightly raised area at the back left of the green, in the second photo, could be a tee?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick Hitt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: where is this?
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2001, 08:27:15 AM »
Here is the link http://www.pasturegolf.com/archive/wpa_courses.htmThe Pasturegolf.com site is very entertaining - it reminds me of the course out west recently featured here with cow fencing around the greens. I may nominate the Peter Jans Golf Course in Evanston, IL for hidden gem status on their site. :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »
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