Olympics course decision delayed until March

[Mike Nuzzo]

MG
If Jack Nicklaus cares about golf he can still be the embassador of Golf to the Olympics.
And help Golf, Brasil and the Olympics - wasn't that part of the deal to let golf in anyway?
Jack will get way more press than Tom or Gil even if they were designing the course.

What does Pete Dye have to do with the Olympics?
Why should the Olympics owe Pete something?

The Client is The Olympics & Brasil.

OSSSSS!!!!

[Michael George]

I would disagree with that last statement.

If Tiger, Phil, Rory, Ernie, Donald, Sergio, Scott, etc are all thundering down the back 9 playing great golf on the last day....they could be playing in the freaking parking lot and it would be compelling golf, Olympics-wide or not.

Then a RTJ golf course you will get.  No ounce of contraversy or "quirk" in the course will be present becaues the rich, spoiled players will complain about it and they won't want controversy (again a reason I think NIcklaus gets the job because the players won't feel like they can complain about the course).  

Listen, I hope they don't go this way, but I think it is going to happen.  My hope would be a course that brings out the history of golf and incorporates design concepts from around the world to be on display in the Olympics.  Let the players have to play an Alps like hole.

[Michael George]

MG
If Jack Nicklaus cares about golf he can still be the embassador of Golf to the Olympics.
And help Golf, Brasil and the Olympics - wasn't that part of the deal to let golf in anyway?
Jack will get way more press than Tom or Gil even if they were designing the course.

What does Pete Dye have to do with the Olympics?
Why should the Olympics owe Pete something?

The Client is The Olympics & Brasil.

OSSSSS!!!!

Mike - you are right.  Pete Dye has nothing to do with the Olympics and nothing is owed to him by Brazilians.  As I said, it was the purist in me and was not a realistic expectation.  Just one of those pie in the sky ideas.   I just simply am amazed by the number of great people who got their start with him.

However, I do think this is much more important than who your client is.  The rounds played there during the Olympics will be the biggest spotlight golf has ever seen and has a chance to grow the game more than any event in golf history (certainly more than our debates whether a 3.5 hr round will grow the game).  I would hope that not only the client, but the architects, realize this.

[Lou_Duran]

Then a RTJ golf course you will get.  No ounce of contraversy or "quirk" in the course will be present becaues the rich, spoiled players will complain about it and they won't want controversy (again a reason I think NIcklaus gets the job because the players won't feel like they can complain about the course).
 
Listen, I hope they don't go this way, but I think it is going to happen.  My hope would be a course that brings out the history of golf and incorporates design concepts from around the world to be on display in the Olympics.  Let the players have to play an Alps like hole.

"Rich" AND "spoiled"!  Those awful men and women!  Yep, let's go out and build a course not for the Olympic players, but for the 1500 gca.com enthusiasts.  How would the pros play a psuedo-Alps?  They would know the exact distance to the pin, have the exact line, and probably play the hole like the thousands of c.y. of earth moved to create the feature on the flat site wasn't there.  Or, for instance, put a bunker behind a narrow part of the green on a short hole that not even a good golfer like Richard Choi can get out (e.g. Pacific Dunes #16).  The Olympic contestants would hit a 5 iron off the tee to the better angle and a wedge to the fat part of the green.  The young Brazilian upstart might find golf to be too punishing and do something else.

BTW, I thought that the Keystone pipeline was prudently delayed to give the administration more time for study.  If three and a half years was not enough for some of the smartest, most thoughtful people to understand Keystone, what's all the fuss about giving the Olympic committee an extra month to pick the "best" group for this highly important commission?   And what is it about Nicklaus that he can't get any love on this site?  Too successful?      

[Michael George]

Lou - you are correct - I should have said "egocentric and ungrateful".  I could care less that they are rich.

Also, I like many Nicklaus courses - MV is one of my favorite courses.  However, I am not rooting for him in this matter because I don't like how he and Norman took the political route by teaming up with Anika and Lorena.   

[Mike Nuzzo]

Lou
What is wrong with Nicklaus?

His first Olympic moment was he'd be honored to design the "Jack Nicklaus Olympic Golf Course".
His golf courses are averagely designed and exceptionally maintained - none of which he's routed.
When it appeared as if Tiger would catch and surpass him he started talking about how he had a bigger family to go with his 18 majors.

He still thinks he's competing.
He will be competing with the Olympians, not creating an environment for the best to compete with each other.
He will also be competing with the other architects proving he was best.
Neither of which has anything to do with the client.

OSSSSS!

[Lou_Duran]

MG- Unlike many these days, I like rich people.  I hope they go out and make even more money so that they can put more back into the economy.  And like many here, I am put off with Trump-like egos, but I am not sure I perceive a lack of gratitude.

I too like Nicklaus's work with MV, Cabo del Sol, and Cordillera among my favorites (beware: I also like many of his lesser courses like Glen Abbey, The Hills of Lakeway, Pronghorn, Las Campaņas, Southshore, etc. very much).  Teaming with a well-known woman should not be a reflection on Nicklaus or Norman (of whom I am not a big fan) as much as it is on the whacky politically-correct approach that many seeking work must take into consideration.  In contracting for commercial real estate work with federal agencies such as the FDIC, bringing on a minority contractor as a partner is often a necessity in order to compete.  To the extent that these guys are trying to win the assignment, putting their best foot forward in this high-profile, political environment should not be held against them.  Whoever is chosen, I hope that they will come up with a course that Brazilians and visitors will support and enjoy playing, to the extent that others will be built.  I would hope that good architects who work in the region, people like Randy and Kelly, will get to partake in a future that this course might stimulate.

[Randy Thompson]

Lou,
Have you made reservation for Joe T Garcias! I have not had Mexican food in a year. The topic of discussion during dinner will be you enlighting me how JN, who demands a 2 million design fee if you actually want him to set foot on the project and requires an average plus eight million dollar budget for construction, will stimulate growth in a region where the locals play golf on weekends only. But indierectly I do see your point how Kelly and I could open doors for clients who actually want other more important issues...maybe!

[John Kirk]

This will be the first of many delays:

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/feb/03/delay-signals-tough-call-build-legacy/

Thanks, Bradley.  Good article as always.

Is it any surprise that the committee found it impossible to fully digest eight thoughtful proposals in two days?  Sheesh.  Give yourselves a couple weeks to look them over!

[Brad Klein]

John, for many of us following the process, and for some who are involved in it directly, the notion that the decision would have to be a "consensus" came as a surprise.

[Lou_Duran]

Nuzzo!!!!- I like the Yankees though they win everything and are hardly humble about it.  Yet, you seem to dislike Nicklaus for the same qualities?  Now, I know you're a budding, talented architect whose initial effort ranks right up there with that of the best, but you do seem to have some strange notions about the business.  Developers pay seven figures for the Nicklaus name on their projects because their clients don't know any better and willing to pay $$$$ for crap?  Who is "the client" for the Olympics?  The Committee?  The Olympic competitors?  The wealthy businessmen and tourists who will play the course after the Olympics?  The upwardly mobile Brazilian unfamiliar with the game who might have some vague familiarity with the name "Nicklaus" but who has no clue what a "Doak" is?  The 1500 login members of gca.com?  Really, my good man, you seem to have such a direct line to Nicklaus's psyche that perhaps you might wish to change professions to psychiatry!  

Randy- you mean JN is still in the competition while demanding a $2 Million fee?  If not, maybe "The Committee" will think that they're getting a real bargain (85% discount) too good to pass up.  Perhaps there is a golf business publication which tracks course bankruptcies and closures by architect.  I may be wrong, but I think that Nicklaus probably has a pretty good record in this regard.  I am not suggesting that Nicklaus is going to spur golf participation and new courses in Brazil by building more than the Olympic venue- though he might.  I am saying that if he is chosen and the course is successful, that perhaps that will spur demand and, therefore, work for others who can build good courses with value in mind.

If it was strictly up to me, of the groups competing, I'd pick Doak.  He is the only one I've spent a bit of time with and know he has the complete set of tools to do outstanding work.  Nicklaus has depended greatly on talented associates such as Cupp, Lipe, Williams; and though Tom also has a great group of guys he works with (e.g. Jim Urbina), no doubt he is much more hands-on than Nicklaus and probably more comfortable with a design-build/supervision arrangement.

[Joel_Stewart]

Delaying the announcement until the full committee is in Rio never occurred to me.  It could be the committee got wind of the magnitude of the announcement and how the golf world is watching and decided to make a big thing about it.

I think they are split on the direction of the style of golf course.   Nicklaus, Norman, and Player building an American style championship course and Doak, Hanse and Hawtree building a more natural style golf course.  RTJ2 is feeding off of Chambers Bay since he has nothing else except 300 boring golf courses.  Thompson is a complete unknown?

[Buck Wolter]

They obviously haven't been offered enough 'extra' by any of the groups yet.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm having a hard time gauging this one...

....because outside of GCA.com, I don't know a single soul who is even remotely aware of any of this.  I think in the hardcore golf community its a big deal, but not for anyone else.  This feels like only a teeny % of folks are following this.

I haven't see any mention of it in national or local news media for that matter, other than Golf Periodicals.

[Adam Lawrence]

You obviously missed the excellent piece on the subject in the Wall Street Journal last weekend by John Paul Newport. And a bunch of other coverage in outlets such as CNN and the Washington Post.

[Brad Klein]

Maybe Trump has gotten involved at the last minute trying to fund Trump International Rio GC.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Lou!
Go Giants!

I'm not talking about Nicklaus the golfer and I never called it crap.
Nicklaus the golfer is a completely different story - I rooted for him for years and still would as a player.
He was the greatest - I was enthralled watching him in 86'
I was at a High School party Saturday night chanting Golden Bear - everyone thought I was nuts - which was accurate at the time.

And I'm not talking about business.
I'm talking about golf course architecture the art form.
The client is The Olympics and the City of Rio

Do they want the best golf course or the best promotion tool?
Do they want a golf course that can live under the weight of its own maintenance budget?

Let the players be the heros!

The sand pit or Bob Beamon - who do you remember?

OSSSSS!

[Bart Bradley]

Mike:

I guess I'll be the one to ask....

what the heck is "OSSSS!!!!"

[Mark Chaplin]

I wonder if Nicklaus being the only fit past Champion who didn't travel to St Andrews in 2010 will do him any harm? Maybe the expenses didn't live up to those on his RBS funded trips to the home of golf.

[Ronald Montesano]

As long as the Olympic course measures up to Ferry Point, all will be well in Rio.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mike:
what the heck is "OSSSS!!!!"

If you go to the Olympics in Rio you can say it all you want - it relates to sport, the Olympics (see 5 ring tie in below) and many Brazilians will understand.

I'm glad you asked as I thought I understood the definition - in the context of talking with my Brazilian friends - who use it for many occasions.  I assumed it was Brazilian, but it seems more specific to martial arts: Endure Success

How the greeting / salutation "Oss" came about
pronounced "Ohws"

The famous "OSS" has many origins. The first definition of "OSS" as an abbrevition for Onegai Shimasu, which translates into a request, a solicitation, an invitation like "please", "if you may" or "with your permission", much used when inviting a partner to train.

The second definition of "OSS", also known as "ossu" ( it doesn't matter how you spell it in English), means Oshi Shinobu, which conveys the idea (the literal translation has nothing to do with the context) of "persevering when pushed", or in other words, never give up, have determination, grit and withstand the most arduous of training. Carrying on without giving up, under all kinds of pressure - that's the idea of inner strength so common in Asian culture.

Therefore, at the start of a fight, the martial artist will shout, invoke, emanate the "OSS", as a way of letting this sentiment out. In many sources, "OSS" is defined as a manifestation of ki energy, or in other words, a different kiai (strength), indicating one is ready to fight.

According to Miyamoto Musashi, in the book "Go rin no sho" (Book of the five rings), the samurai would use three types of shouts: one before combat, the second during combat, when attacking, to muster greater strength (kiai), and the third after the fight, to celebrate victory or bemoan defeat.

"Oss", beyond demonstrating strong spirit and determination before a fight, is also used to suggest or confirm a piece of information. Thus, whenever a Sensei asks or informs of something, the response is "OSS!" It is the response that will signify understanding or confirm understanding.

OSS!

[Bart Bradley]

Mike:

 

I am not so glad that I asked  .

Bart

[Lou_Duran]

Nuzzo!!!!!-  Go Giants!!?  I suppose so, but I'm golfing this afternoon (hope to have the course to myself).

Thank God for Google.  I knew nothing of sand pits or Bob (I was not a track guy growing up; never enjoyed physical exertion for its own sake, particularly without a ball).  But you are right, most people forget who the architect is while remembering the golf course.  I disagree with you that Nicklaus doesn't design compelling golf courses which can "live under the weight" of their own maintenance budget.  Considering his body of work, are his courses proportionally more underwater than those of some whom you may favor?

As to the client and purpose of the course, I would argue that the course is a "marketing tool" for Rio, and, by definition, the "best course" is not one which necessarily meets the artsy, somewhat nebulous criteria of amateur (and some "pros") golf architecture critics, but that of the real clients- those for whom it is being built and will depend on in the future.  I suspect that the Olympic course will depend largely on well-off visitors and residents, both of which there are growing numbers.  I doubt that its ongoing maintenance budget will be austere, but go up to see The Hills of Lakeway.  You might learn that not all Nicklaus courses cost an arm and a leg to maintain.

Ronald- What's the status of FP?  Or are you suggesting that the Nicklaus involvement is somehow responsible for the delays (and Rio should expect the same)?  

[Michael Goldstein]

The delay is to read through pages of this website