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Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2012, 02:13:13 PM »
Providing costs in this particular instance would be difficult as we do not know.  Much was done in house with some also being contracted.  Many Club's prefer to not share those numbers and I am not sure of Mannie's policy. 


I understand.  Thanks.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2012, 02:28:50 PM »
Jim -

Your work looks great. Did the club need to get any government permits or approvals for the tree removal?

Bob

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2012, 08:41:09 PM »
The new look is awesome.  Wonder how many other area clubs will join in once they see results like these. :)

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2012, 09:53:58 PM »
Having a fair understanding of tree removal projects, and more importantly, tree management programs, I'll wade in with a few thoughts. So as to respect the private club nature of disclosure,  just general observations will be offered.

First, let me say I played Mannie's for the first time this past Fall, on a breezy, beautiful late-October day, and was BLOWN AWAY by the presentation and quality of this course. The greens were VERY firm and rolled spooky quick. They were not over the edge, rather perfect would be more accurate.

There had been some significant shower activity a few days prior, but the course was fairly dry and not muddy at all. This course, with a valley setting, can get hammered and does flood. Scott May and his team do a superb job, and he quite often does projects in-house when prudent.

A large misconception exists that trees are worth a lot of money, and a financial windfall awaits any golf course felling large numbers of trees. Most trees have minimal value and every time they are handled there is a cost involved. Certainly, some high-value species can command good coin, but they are seldom present in the numbers needed to mean significant returns.

In-house tree removals can be attempted, but the location and technical requirements better be low-risk or you are asking for trouble.
The sweetness of "saving money" can quickly be erased by an accident or fatality. Tree care is a VERY HIGH-RISK occupation.That's why having well-trained, certified arborists, who are pros doing it EVERYDAY, assess and handle most projects, makes sense.

If something goes wrong and your man with the saw isn't certified, serious EXPOSURE to liability is assured. The insurance coverage to perform tree work is QUITE COSTLY; most clubs or facilities DO NOT carry that ceiling of coverage. Many bristle at even spending money on tree management, often looking the other way and hoping nothing happens. There is NO WAY they are covered properly. Some golf management companies, even some top names that know the facts...roll the dice. Not a wise action-plan.

Any club or facility that is serious about safety concerns, and proper presentation of their property, should have a strong working partnership with a certified tree care company. The days of a reactive, three bid...low price gets the work...tree management approach doesn't cut it with all that's at stake for today's golf facilities.

Progressive golf architects, superintendents, management/facility owners and their golfers, members or otherwise, understand that addressing tree issues from a knowledge-based perspective is best, just as it is in virtually every other professional field. This is doubly true for high-risk endeavors...yet many still wing it with no real tree management plan. Don't let thrift get in the way of safety and common sense.

That's my take as someone who has done the job, and currently works with golf facilities to collaborate on delivering safe, quality presentations we can all enjoy.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 08:36:06 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Dean DiBerardino

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2012, 10:23:09 AM »
Below is an image from Penn Pilot dated October 8th of 1942. Looks like the overzealous tree planting had just begun....


Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2012, 06:23:25 PM »
Dean,

Great aerial photo! Note the tin soldier straight rows of trees planted for screening certain holes from others. As others have commented, while this may be well intentioned, when they mature, errant shots often can't be seen and golfers are generally
struck without any warning. Even if the "fore" cry is heard, there quite often isn't time to react or take cover...what direction is safe?

This photo illistrates the difficulty in deciding what to do for safety and other concerns. That is why careful planning and analysis,  WELL AHEAD of construction or renovation of the course, with an arborist partner to help advise the design/install team, makes obvious sense. We're not talking a bag of money here for that consulting service either. So long as the relationship is properly established, most quality arborists include their participation as part of the work package.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2012, 11:07:56 PM »
Kris,

You bring up some excellent points regarding the liability and insurance issues involved with tree removal programs.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 11:20:56 PM by JSlonis »

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2012, 06:39:53 AM »
Jamie,

We're finding an increased interest by clubs in properly assessing their tree component portion of the overall course and property presentation. As my brother (Master Arborist) is fond of saying, "We're also in the education business."

Slowly, folks are starting to realize you can't just look the other way, hoping nothing happens. Despite serious safety and risk concerns, many think claiming no knowledge or ignorance of their situation is an out...IT'S NOT! They will be held liable in most cases.

IM me your contact details and I'll share more with you on the questions you sent me.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2012, 07:36:53 AM »
The benefit of tree removals has shown itself to be pretty obvious at my course, however the board seems to also know that liability and
safety are factors to be considered.  I think that's one of the better areas of understanding I've seen develop in my tenure.

JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2012, 08:38:35 AM »
The straight line planting may be a function of the timing of the plantings.  I may be wrong, we have heard in recent years that many of the tree planting programs implemeted at many clubs were Public Works projects during the depression.  If this is in fact true, you can understand the philosophy of planting - limited direction and little thought to play.  Luckily that has changed, for the most part.
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2012, 09:46:48 AM »
Kris,

You bring up some excellent points regarding the liability and insurance issues involved with tree removal programs.

What are the insurance issues involved?
H.P.S.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2012, 12:00:21 PM »
Kris,

You bring up some excellent points regarding the liability and insurance issues involved with tree removal programs.

What are the insurance issues involved?

Pat,

For the removal of trees, there are issues of safety and liability in regard to a club's workers compensation policy (for work that is done in house by the greens staff) and general liability.  If you are just dealing with smaller trees, there is usually no problem, but many of the older clubs in the Philadelphia area are dealing a lot with rather large trees.  This type of removal generally involves ropes/climbers  or bucket trucks to remove large pieces quite high up before the entire tree is felled.  After that, you have issues with stump removal/grinding.  There are also issues when you have trees that border property lines, might be near power lines or near public roads.  These are just some of the factors to consider when looking at contracting out or doing work in house.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 12:04:06 PM by JSlonis »

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2012, 12:51:17 PM »
Kris,

You bring up some excellent points regarding the liability and insurance issues involved with tree removal programs.

What are the insurance issues involved?

Pat,

For the removal of trees, there are issues of safety and liability in regard to a club's workers compensation policy (for work that is done in house by the greens staff) and general liability.  If you are just dealing with smaller trees, there is usually no problem, but many of the older clubs in the Philadelphia area are dealing a lot with rather large trees.  This type of removal generally involves ropes/climbers  or bucket trucks to remove large pieces quite high up before the entire tree is felled.  After that, you have issues with stump removal/grinding.  There are also issues when you have trees that border property lines, might be near power lines or near public roads.  These are just some of the factors to consider when looking at contracting out or doing work in house.

Jamie,

Thank you for the explanation.
H.P.S.

GBoring

Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2012, 04:46:32 PM »
Jim,

I went back a few years using Google Earth and was amazed to see the changes here at Scranton.  I went back to 1999 when we first started the Tree Management Program.  Thirteen years later we still aren't finished but the changes are considerable. 

Country Club of Scranton in 1999


Country Club of Scranton in October of 2011


We have or in the process of taking down another 40-50 evergreen trees currently.  The views from the clubhouse have been reestablished.  You can see much of the property from the clubhouse.  Our turf conditions are improving every year due to the reduction of shade issues and tree root competition.