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JNagle

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Excellent tree program
« on: February 03, 2012, 10:24:10 AM »
For any who knows this course they will be excited to see the direction the Club has taken.  A little guess work is required.



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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

PCCraig

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Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2012, 10:36:07 AM »
Somewhere in the Philadelphia area? Do you have a "before" picture? To me it looks like they could stand to take down a few more.
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Chris Roselle

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Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 10:48:51 AM »
Manufacturers Golf and Country Club...
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JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 11:06:50 AM »
PGraig -

We will search for a before.  Believe me, if you knew the course you would understand that the remaining trees are
a very, very, very small portion of what was there.  Each and every hole was tree lined with an over abundance of
evergreens and crummy Silver and Norway maples.  This is a huge improvement with much credit given to the
Club, Green Committee and the staff of Scott May (superintendent).
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 11:24:46 AM »
I'd cry for joy if my club did this..

Mark
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JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 11:32:28 AM »
Chris is correct.  Manufacturers it is.  Definitely one of the best tree removal programs I've seen in the Philly area.  The removal of all the pines has really improved an already good golf course.  The results are night and day.  It's great to see some clubs embracing this type of program.  Philadelphia Cricket Club did an outstanding job with the tree removal there as well.

The one local course that I'd really love to see address the tree issue is Torresdale Frankford CC.  There is a gem of Ross course there that would really shine if you could see more of it.
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 11:32:54 AM »
Quote from: PCraig on February 03, 2012, 10:36:07 AM
Somewhere in the Philadelphia area? Do you have a "before" picture? To me it looks like they could stand to take down a few more.


Pat,

Which ones would you still take out? I'm all for completely open vistas, but I also like the scattered specimen tree landscaping although I'd be lying if I claimed to know if any of these are specimen quality.
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PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 11:35:28 AM »
Quote from: JNagle on February 03, 2012, 11:06:50 AM
PGraig -

We will search for a before.  Believe me, if you knew the course you would understand that the remaining trees are
a very, very, very small portion of what was there.  Each and every hole was tree lined with an over abundance of
evergreens and crummy Silver and Norway maples.  This is a huge improvement with much credit given to the
Club, Green Committee and the staff of Scott May (superintendent).

JNagle:

When you have a free chance, could you give us a little more clarity regarding the background to the tree program? It seems many clubs are removing trees slowly over time (cost, I'm assuming), how did your club decide to remove so many trees in a short period of time? Some more before and after pictures would be great as well. Overall, congrats on a successful improvement at your club!
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PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2012, 11:41:15 AM »
Quote from: Jim Sullivan on February 03, 2012, 11:32:54 AM
Quote from: PCraig on February 03, 2012, 10:36:07 AM
Somewhere in the Philadelphia area? Do you have a "before" picture? To me it looks like they could stand to take down a few more.


Pat,

Which ones would you still take out? I'm all for completely open vistas, but I also like the scattered specimen tree landscaping although I'd be lying if I claimed to know if any of these are specimen quality.

Jim,

Considering that I am by no means an expert in tree removal and that I haven't played the course before, please take this as just my opinion, based on one picture.

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Neil White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2012, 11:44:15 AM »
JNagle,

I was wondering if you could give some indication as to how trees were chosen for removal?

It would seem from reading that plenty of pines have been removed but looking at the photo there seems to be varying ages of trees present - have some of the younger specimens been retained in case the more mature trees die or indeed have they been recently planted?  The three that create a triangle in the fore / mid ground seem unnecessary as do the two either side rear of the green.

Cheers,

Neil.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 11:47:18 AM by Neil White »
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Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2012, 11:53:29 AM »
Using timeline on Google Earth shows great before and after photos. Anyone know how to post those images?

 
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JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2012, 11:57:59 AM »
Niel -

Our approach to tree removal is multi-leveled.  In this particular instance the course was overplanted with White Pines and Spruces.  Nearly all of these types of trees have been eliminated.  The tree masses were so extensive that as trees were being removed the remaining trees were nothing to look at and in many instances old and weakened.  We had to also look at the remaining varieties.  Were the trees worthy of remaining.  We look for long living, stately or majestic - Oaks, Sycamores, Red or Sugar Maples, Beech and other deciduous trees.  Trees like Silver or Norway Maples, Ash, Honeylocust Sweetgum........ are on the hit list.  We must also look at location and impact on playability and maintenance.  Another consideration is the remaining views and nature of the topography.  The MG & CC property was a functioning estate prior to being turned over to the Club and therefore had a number of trees and should still retain large species.  The smaller trees seen in the photo are replantings which have taken place in the last five years.  We must plan for future generations at the Club.  We must be wise in our selection of long lived disease resitant species.  Of course, safety is also a consideration.  Some trees must remain and in some instances to allow for better visibility of tees, fairway or cart paths some are removed.  Being able to see other golfers is often a reason to remove trees.  Golfers are less likely to yell "fore" if they do not see an
adjoinig hole.

Tree programs can be as involved as an entire renovation and restoration.  If you think members are protective of their course, try cutting down their trees!
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2012, 12:01:10 PM »
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2012, 12:03:28 PM »
Good post JNagle.

Pat Craig - fair enough, I'm not going to critique your critique. What do you think of JNagle's explanation of replanting in certain spots with an eye to the future? I like that attitude in the midst of a major clearing.
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Neil White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2012, 12:19:59 PM »
JNagle,

Thanks for the explanation.

As contentious and provocative an undertaking as a tree removal program is, I wonder if many courses explain to their membership the need for selective re-planting as is the case at your club.

Cheers,

Neil.



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JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2012, 12:22:21 PM »
First image is May 1999 before any development of the Master Plan started.



September 2003 - Master Plan was accepted by this time and a few small projects were
about to get started.  Tree Management was about to kick off in earnest in 2004.



This last image if from October 2011.  By this time we have rebuilt the 4th, 9th, 17th and
both 18th greens.  Many (but not all) bunkers have been rebuilt on holes 1, 3, 4,
5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 14, 16, 17 and 18.  There is still much work to be done.  It has
been an honor to watch this place evolve.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 12:24:05 PM by JNagle »
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2012, 12:29:46 PM »
Awesome stuff! Thanks for posting.
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Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2012, 12:38:54 PM »
Quote from: PCraig on February 03, 2012, 10:36:07 AM
Somewhere in the Philadelphia area? Do you have a "before" picture? To me it looks like they could stand to take down a few more.

Pat,

Google Earth satellite imagery has a time function that allows you to scroll back-in-time to, in this case, see the evolution of the trees at Manufacturers, and the subsequent tree management program.

TK
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Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2012, 12:41:55 PM »
JNagle:

Is it possible for you to share the cost of this effort (just the tree removal part) and to what extent those costs were or could have been offset by selling the wood?
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Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2012, 12:55:42 PM »
I have a "during" photo album of Mannies from late April of 2010.  I believe they were partially into the tree removal program.

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/mannies/
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The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2012, 12:57:38 PM »
Quote from: Jason Topp on February 03, 2012, 12:41:55 PM
JNagle:

Is it possible for you to share the cost of this effort (just the tree removal part) and to what extent those costs were or could have been offset by selling the wood?

JNagle,

I would also be interested, if you don't mind sharing.
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Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2012, 01:00:00 PM »
Tree work is one of the most difficult challenges facing any board/greens comm/super at almost every club. The emotion we give to any particular tree so out weighs what it means within the golf course as a living evolving things. a lot like trying to stop a government program once it starts.
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Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2012, 01:24:21 PM »
J,

Great stuff, thanks for posting! I am a sucker for google earth images, especially looking at the shading to see where old bunkers were removed. (And I am so glad our tech guy insisted on two monitors for my desk at work!)

I can only imagine how much better the turf will be in two years!
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JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2012, 01:27:38 PM »
Guys,

Jim is the consulting architect.  Although he might know some of the numbers, I would think the club handles the finances of the total tree program with regard to cost.

At Philly Cricket, I believe the total cost to the club for their extensive tree removal was very low.  Large majority of work was done in house combined with the removal and sale of the wood
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JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Excellent tree program
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2012, 01:34:17 PM »
Providing costs in this particular instance would be difficult as we do not know.  Much was done in house with some also being contracted.  Many Club's prefer to not share those numbers and I am not sure of Mannie's policy. 
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"
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