Why no Biarritz at NGLA?

[David Stewart]

This may have been discussed on another thread but I couldn't find it using the search. I was wondering why there isn't a Biarritz at The National. Did it just not fit well into the routing? Were the other holes so good that Macdonald couldn't afford leaving one out for a Biarritz? Did Macdonald ever discuss why there isn't one?

On this topic, are there other well-known CBM courses that do not contain a Biarritz?

Your knowledge/insight is much appreciated. Thanks.

[Joey Chase]

I don't think there is one at Sleepy Hollow.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

In the words of Mike Young, that is a question for one of the Old Dead Guys, namely CB Mac.

[David Stewart]

I don't think there is one at Sleepy Hollow.

I think you are right in regards to the 18 hole course, but I think CBM built a Biarritz on the 9 hole course there, just a little northwest of the famous Short hole on the 18 hole course if you look at the aerial.

[DMoriarty]

CBM's plan at NGLA was to incorporate the best features and principles into the course as the nature of the site would allow.  Apparently the land at NGLA didn't fit with his early conception of the Biarritz.

I don't think there is one at Sleepy Hollow.

I think Sleepy Hollow had a Biarritz, although not necessarily the best one according to George Bahto.  Sleepy Hollow also had a longer hole with what some today would likely term a biarritz green --a green bisected into two sections by a swale running horizontally across the middle of the green.

[Simon Holt]

I always thought that the 11th green had a feel of a Biarritz green.  Not as obvious but certainly a subtle version of the 16th at North Berwick, but the opposite angle.

If you think about it the road on 11 NGLA almost acts as the burn does at 16 at NB.  Just a thought.

[Joey Chase]

I don't think there is one at Sleepy Hollow.

I think you are right in regards to the 18 hole course, but I think CBM built a Biarritz on the 9 hole course there, just a little northwest of the famous Short hole on the 18 hole course if you look at the aerial.

I hadn't seen the 9 holer when I went there.  Looking at the aerial, I see what you're saying.  Is it possible that it was originally part of the CBM design before Tilly came in?

[George_Bahto]

Cbm, no Biarritz at Ngla

In my opinion, I think he did not have the proper topo but at the next course he decided to build a ground-level version

At sleepy hollow his Biarritz is down in the lower corner - its the second hole of the nine hole course   (short yardage - down hill - not a good rendition)

[Jim Nugent]

Did CBM have the idea for the Biarritz when he built NGLA? 

[Joey Chase]

Cbm, no Biarritz at Ngla

In my opinion, I think he did not have the proper topo but at the next course he decided to build a ground-level version

At sleepy hollow his Biarritz is down in the lower corner - its the second hole of the nine hole course   (short yardage - down hill - not a good rendition)

In your opinion, which are his best, beyond Yale?

[cary lichtenstein]

I was able to get in touch with C B McDonald a few minutes ago. He told me that he had it in the original proposal, but after re-thinking the topography, he thought it was out of place. He further said, there was just no big earth moving machinery then, but he would create one their if the project was today.

Anyone who wants to reach him, he is available on Friday nites only.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cary,

I'm in contact with CBM on a weekly basis.

He informs me that you spoke to his assistant, not the great man himself.
Evidently, you call would have interupted a meeting with Seth Raynor and CBM and thus, he couldn't take your call.

He asked me to correct you regarding your statement about the absence of earth moving machinery.
He went on to add that a good deal of earth was moved at several sites, including the 8th green.
He suggested that the next time you're at NGLA, that you go behind each green and look back to see how much dirt was moved in constructing those greens.

As to the Biarritz, it was displaced/shelved because so many great holes became apparent to him upon his first and subsequent visits to the site.  The natural Redan, just sitting there, waiting to be played.  The natural and enhanced Eden with penalties for the topped shot and the wonderful short, from the lofty tee down to that wonderful green.  In his out and back routing he could not locate the landform that would provide the perfect footpad for a Biarritz.

But, he didn't abandon the concept, taking it off the shelf at Piping Rock, Yale and other sites.

[DMoriarty]

I've no direct line of communication to CBM.  But fortunately I can read.  While CBM mentioned the concept for the Biarritz upon returning from his trip abroad in 1906, and while it was one of the 18 holes listed as examples on his description of his example of an ideal course, I don't think it was ever in CBM's plans or "proposals" for NGLA. (Not sure it could be considered a "proposal" since it was his course.)  The Biarritz concept doesn't show up in any of his descriptions of the course and it isn't on the earliest sketches of the course, at least not that I have seen.    CBM came had many ideas for holes -- according to him many more than just those listed in is Ideal Golf Course article, but the application was dependent upon the site.   Apparently there was no place for a Biarritz at NGLA, either that it just didn't make the cut for that particular site.